Bye Bye Supports

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Lessis

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Senior Member

11-20-2013

i am 1 of 3 high elo support players in dominion a mode where there is no need to pick a support. a mode where every player has about the same amount of gold. does that mean supports are never picked and replaced by mages like annie fiddle zyra or brand? yes often times they are, does that means supports should be replaced with them? no it means you should pick supports that fit team comps. it also means that players who do not play support champions can pick mages or tanky support to help. what you should be asking is what does this mean for marksmen there may be 3 high elo support players but there is 1 high elo marksmen player without TRUE supports bruiser take over. Dominion meta is MONTHS ahead of SR meta if you are a good support player who wants to play support then there will be a place for you in this future meta. if you think that these changes are a nerf you are WRONG everything i have seen here is a straight buff to the champions you love dont believe me you should have went to the PBE and tried them. those of us that did know the truth these are buffs to the things you should be bringing to the team which is a good thing. Jatt is correct to point out that often times getting ap does not help your team 200-300 is more than enough and getting tanky cdr items help you scale better damage you soak is damage a carry didnt and a cd wasted on the other team.

also b4 the LOL dominion I am the only one of the 3 of us who is not diamond 1 or challenger


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Gurei Fullbuster

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
The latter. People have tried playing support class champions in main roles before. It doesn't really work. Try putting old Sona in mid or top. Does it work? No. Try Soraka (which actually used to work until you saw it and said "Hey! You're supposed to be a support, get back to bot lane!" and nerfed the **** out of her) in mid or top. Does it work? No. An even better example though, is have you ever been in a game where you were playing Sona bot lane and your ADC and their ADC were d/ced for the laning phase (very rare to have this exact scenario, but I've seen it before). Was Sona and the other support oppressively effective? NO.

It hasn't mattered in the past if supports got carry level amounts of farm, they were still ineffective compared to a "real" champion with the same amount of farm. Thus, your nerfs to supports with the increased gold gain feels no different than before when we were less-nerfed (note that I didn't use "un-nerfed" but "less-nerfed") with no gold than even-more-nerfed with more gold. You can make the argument "But you don't know that it feels like that yet!" but we actually do, when our champions are statistically worse than before and we still didn't do well pre-this-nerf when we took up a role that gave us a greater amount of gold than that of the support.


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Gods Grunt

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
that WOULD give the supports more agency


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TheUltimate3

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages.
As TheUltimate3 reads this thread, for the first time, I have to actually quote a red for a direct and confrontational response.

Dafuq about Zyra then? Zyra is supposed to be about murdering things. Now she's played support and that's a-okay. But if Janna or Lulu go and murder things, those have to be nerfed to focus on support? Dafuq is that $*#@ fair?


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Xonra

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because if we knew what to buff to bulwark for unknown tuning differences on characters, then we'd already have done it based on having the information that they're undertuned :P It'd be reactive to the particular problems that are there. It's not a huge stretch to say Orianna is overtuned already, though does that mean Janna needs buffs, or something else?

You guys are reacting to what is a temporal, possible problem in a time when those will be the case; preseason. There's a specific reason we wait until between Ranked Seasons to do this stuff - to make sure the details can be managed before it's "for keeps." The direction is theory-craftable, but details really aren't.
I'm not sure if you are tired or purposely not getting all the points being made.

AP champs like Annie (is the most common example) are ALREADY better than most current supports. As in right now...before preseason, pre nerfs to supports, without extra gold.

How do you literally not understand that if Annie (against most common example) is right now better that she won't be FAR better come this next patch with way more gold and the other supports pimp slapped to a lower tier.

It is literally obvious to me, and I'm in bronze, so how is it not obvious to you of all people?


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
13 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by relevantex View Post
I just don't understand what is so wrong with Soraka, Sona, Taric, Nami, Leona, and Lulu dealing some damage too?
They do deal some. :P Not a ton because they shield, heal, buff and speed up allies. Sometimes they have tank-level CC.

I need to leave for now. Bottom line on this stuff;

1) Supports can do some damage; supports are not primary damage-dealers.

2) If the tuning is off and AP mids blow away support characters, we'll adjust aggressively throughout preseason.

3) Having not had gold in 3 years is not a counter-argument for why this class can not have damage nerfs when it should be focused on utility, which is how we will likely continue to scale them (CD's, duration, intensity, impact).


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mi ramfan

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because if we knew what to buff to bulwark for unknown tuning differences on characters, then we'd already have done it based on having the information that they're undertuned :P It'd be reactive to the particular problems that are there. It's not a huge stretch to say Orianna is overtuned already, though does that mean Janna needs buffs, or something else?

You guys are reacting to what is a temporal, possible problem in a time when those will be the case; preseason. There's a specific reason we wait until between Ranked Seasons to do this stuff - to make sure the details can be managed before it's "for keeps." The direction is theory-craftable, but details really aren't.
Yeah, we're reacting to a temporal, possible problem in a time when they'll happen. Do you know why we do that these days?

Because in the past, you have nerfed champions to the ground for being slightly overtuned. And then you left them there. For MONTHS. You left Karma in the dumpster for 2 years before even attempting to fix her (and she's arguably still in the dumpster now). You left Heimerdinger in the trash for two years. Eve in the trash for two years. Olaf for six months. Alistar and Urgot since late Season 2 (with seemingly no end in sight).

So forgive me when I see an entire class of champions losing massive amounts of damage at all stages of the game for a tiny amount of bonus utility late game and calling it a nerf. And please forgive me for being under the impression that you would forget about a support or two and leave them in the trash for months or more. You've evolved past that as a design team now, I'm sure.

Problem is, the community doesn't just want to hear words anymore. We heard words and got almost no action for most of Season 3 (see: the three month stretch in the summer when there were 9 ranged champions every game). That, I think, is why some of your posts are getting downvoted; because for the last few months we have seen an awful lot of words from Riot and not many improvements.

There's absolutely no problems with planning ahead with buffs and nerfs and saying,"well, if Janna/Nami comes out underpowered we could try X or Y." After all, if they don't come out underpowered you never have to put X or Y into play, you can just throw them away.

But wouldn't it be better to be proactive about this type of thing instead of reactive?


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Chess435

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Senior Member

11-20-2013

I do have one request if Taric ends up being undertuned. Could you please PLEASE buff his mana regen? He has the lowest in the game to compensate for two passives ago, (When he could hit things to regain mana) and it really sucks having to forgo scaling MR blues in favor of mana regen just to keep him from running OOM really fast.


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If I were Jesus

Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
The point people are making is WHY change supports if people are just going to put mages bot anyway because they will always be more efficient with the gold.
Annie has a 1.5 second AoE stun available at level 1 and has incredible base damages as she levels, with the AP that other supports are getting she'll be able to nuke better while others do what? slow better?
Death is the ultimate CC, you don't need a scaling shield when you can just faceroll the squishies and instagib as a support.


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Arcane Ezreal

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Supports are now going to be able to build AP now, the thing what happened is that a bonus CC or more utility while having the insane dmg scaling won't work out well because, they can do nothing in lane but harass and other stuff -- support stuff. Now, I'm sure you all have seen what an AP Sona can do. That plus more utility is insane, oh and you don't have to farm and let the ADC do that, you'll still be getting items. This is the reason they had to tune the scaling down.

I think it's rather reasonable.