Bye Bye Supports

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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
11 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Sniek View Post
So the support role being contested by other chars (like real mages), then its fine. Becase 'not only 6 characters should have a place in a lane'. But when a support would be contesting the middle lane, than it's not fine?
It is now. Solo support no longer is an overtuned mage.


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Boreall

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Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the view I think is coloring analysis here - it's the "we've been in a bad space so long, you can't make any, non-power-increase changes." This is a ridiculous notion.

Tanks do awful damage, but have strong bases. They have utility and impact the game, scaling on durability and CDR. At worst, supports can do that (we see those builds on Dominion when they get gold, typically). We wanted to enhance build paths a bit though.

If you want to do big damage, then I actually don't understand why you are playing a support character.
One thing I think most people are missing Morello is even though their AP ratios got nerfed, and in some cases their CC, they don't realize that these supports will have 200-400 more AP than they ever had before, their damage will not be negligible. At least this is my thought on the subject, correct me if I'm wrong, but if your changes are accurate, this will result in supports being a scary presence not just in lane, but late game aswell, not to mention the fact that they wont be 3-4 levels behind everybody else.


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relevantex

Senior Member

11-20-2013

I just don't understand what is so wrong with Soraka, Sona, Taric, Nami, Leona, and Lulu dealing some damage too?


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).
I think you're conflating support role and support champion here. The support role got Tons of Gold, probably 2 big items worth of gold. The support champions generally got ratio nerfs and utility buffs. The non-support support champions are generally unchanged.

In order for support champions to win the support role from non-support champions, those utility effects have to be worth more than the extra damage you get from non-support pick. I'm having a really hard time seeing how decreased slow decay on Lulu or increased move speed on Sona is going to stack up against Tons of Damage on Annie.


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
12 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaarrjj View Post
MORELLO! Why can't you understand!!!!!

The issue is Annie and Fiddlesticks and co are going to get more gold to deal more damage and gib the laning phase even faster! But they haven't received nerfs to their CC or Damage, but Supports have!

It's fine if supports have to have utility nerfs so that they can scale harder with their utility, but Damage nerfs are ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE in the face of annie and fiddlesticks not getting nerfed for being played support, and getting more gold to kill things faster!
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).


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Ratastok

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
If this is the problem, we can increase support utility ratios - and if that is really not good, we will. It's a real risk, but the difference is this is a temporal issue, just like League of X was in preseason last year. That's the time to do this stuff, get the data/feedback, and get it in tuning for 2014. If I seem like I'm not worried, it's because the path forward is clear in any case - the whole preseason plan is predicated on tuning being imperfect and us being on-deck to fix it.
Or you could do your favorite thing and nerf the offenders.
Just a slight nerf,while giving an slight buff to the supports so the nerfed champ can still be played bot while the supports dont get outclassed that hard.


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MephyRunsAllDay

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Some people are not getting the point: PRESEASON IS FOR TESTS.
They can be underpowered, maybe, yes, it could happen. But the preseason is time to make big changes while having no impact in the ranked system.


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Vroggoth

Member

11-20-2013

What the hell does it matter if we disagree with the changes. It'll get forced down our throats like the jungle changes from previous seasons. everyone hated them but rito kept on and then made huge changes (i.e. Making camps "charge" with gold and increase xp and gold gain overall, season 3 ridiculously overpowered jungle items to compensate for the overall ****ty state of the jungle) until it might be decent halfway through the year and then they'll start all over again for the next one.


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UgIierBetty

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the view I think is coloring analysis here - it's the "we've been in a bad space so long, you can't make any, non-power-increase changes." This is a ridiculous notion.

Tanks do awful damage, but have strong bases. They have utility and impact the game, scaling on durability and CDR. At worst, supports can do that (we see those builds on Dominion when they get gold, typically). We wanted to enhance build paths a bit though.

If you want to do big damage, then I actually don't understand why you are playing a support character.
You're misunderstanding us.


Personally, I don't care if I'm doing carry-level damage when I play support. I honestly love the feeling of helping out my team.


The problem is: now champs like Zyra or Orianna can go "support" and build full AP. Then they'll proceed to do carry-level damage.


Sona? Same old Sona.


Why would I ever play a traditional support over a utility mage now?



I fear this patch is going to lead to the nerfing of utility mages down the line because they'll be disgustingly OP bot-lane... which would be horrible... it would be a huge unnecessary nerf that could have been avoided.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So you want all supports to turn into mages? Because that's what damage on these characters makes (and then you just nuke with them like AP mids).
No, the problem is Fiddlesticks and Annie are mages who are going to get more gold out of all of this. And they haven't been touched.

Nerfing Supports damage capabilities, but not nerfing Mages utility capabilities is what's wrong!