Bye Bye Supports

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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Death is the Ultimate Crowd Control, and Damage is the bigggest avenue to get that done, utility can help.

When you have Annie or Fiddle sticks who already bring great CC capabilities to support, AND you're giving them extra gold, they'll do even more damage. Their CC doesn't need to scale with ability power because it's effective enough for what it is, and the damage that annie or fiddle possess.


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Maximum Irelia

Member

11-20-2013

Morello, I'm curious, what prompted the decision to start balancing supports for having an elevated gold supply? League only has three lanes worth of CS. I feel that artificially inflating the gold supply of "support" champions only leads to greater balancing issues. As a support main, I was pretty happy with my overall power during games.

The only thing I can think of is that this is to compensate for the indirect nerfs supports received through the ward limits. Is this the reasoning?


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HeyLPG

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the view I think is coloring analysis here - it's the "we've been in a bad space so long, you can't make any, non-power-increase changes." This is a ridiculous notion.

Tanks do awful damage, but have strong bases. They have utility and impact the game, scaling on durability and CDR. At worst, supports can do that (we see those builds on Dominion when they get gold, typically). We wanted to enhance build paths a bit though.

If you want to do big damage, then I actually don't understand why you are playing a support character.
Because we like the champion and we should be able to fulfill our fantasy right? OUR LEAGUE FANTASY REMEMBER MORELLO?


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Letsgetcooking

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Now it's time for the important question...
Do you think support Naut will see worlds?


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If I were Jesus

Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?
Morello you're an ass.


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AK47 Ho Chi Minh

Member

11-20-2013

Morello you didn't even answer OP's question

Why would a support get AP before sightstone?


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Ultra Sniek

Junior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Contested is fine - I don't think only six characters should have a place in a lane - but as long as they're not overtaken or obsoleted (or even really marginalized) by alternative options, then it's a good variety.

I'm not convinced that Janna needs 750 point shields that give 200 AD to be comparable to an Annie, though :P That was reasonably normal in a lot of our playtests before changes. Again preseason and particular balance will be in flux (and we'll address).
So the support role being contested by other chars (like real mages), then its fine. Becase 'not only 6 characters should have a place in a lane'. But when a support would be contesting the middle lane, than it's not fine?

AFAIK Janna's AD bonus with her shield never stacked with AP, it was just maxed at 50. So if you wouldn't make that change, she would never even give shields that give more than 50 AD bonus. And the shield being big itself is fine for me, if you worry about very big shields, you could've tweaked the numbers a bit. Like .7 AP ratio instead of .9. But nope, just adjust everything else seemed like the answer to all of your problems..


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-20-2013
10 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Tog View Post
But you're not giving Soraka, Janna, and Sona an extra 3000-6000 gold. You're giving whoever duo lanes as support an extra 3000-6000 gold.

Didn't you guys just make a big deal about the difference between support champions and the support role? Because you're acting like that's not an issue anymore. Nothing's forcing us to pick Soraka. If she's still going to scale worse with gold than Annie or Lux, why wouldn't we just take Annie or Lux? Heck, why not take Nidalee or Kayle, both of whom have pretty good heals and can protect their carry better (Nidalee with traps, pro-active poke, and eventually the threat of a courgar form execution, Kayle with her slow and invulnerability ult)? Kayle scales really really hard with gold but she also doesn't need a whole lot of it to be effective.

Part of the issue is that you guys still haven't fixed resistances. It's still very unrewarding to build tanky for most champions; most of the time, you'll feel better just building damage. A support Annie with a DFG at 30 minutes is still going to be able to erase a squishy from the teamfight while stunning everyone else. No matter how much utility a support has, there is no harder form of CC in this game than death.

It's a great premise. It really is. I love the idea of support champions claiming the support role because they can support better than utility mages can support + nuke, and I do see the need to nerf their damage in recompense for scaling utility (or else they'd just essentially become utility mages themselves).

But the numbers just don't seem to add up. You can go on about how we don't know what it'll be like when supports have gold but we've all played in games where the Janna or Soraka or Lulu went mid. It was unimpressive, even at their old numbers. Not horrible (all three are decent laners) but come teamfights they're just lacking.

For me at least, real disagreements. In tl;dr form, that they'll scale sufficiently well with gold to justify picking them, and that you seem to have tried to balance them against their old selves instead of against their true S4 competition.
If this is the problem, we can increase support utility ratios - and if that is really not good, we will. It's a real risk, but the difference is this is a temporal issue, just like League of X was in preseason last year. That's the time to do this stuff, get the data/feedback, and get it in tuning for 2014. If I seem like I'm not worried, it's because the path forward is clear in any case - the whole preseason plan is predicated on tuning being imperfect and us being on-deck to fix it.


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YGY818

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Example: Would adding a 0.001 AP Ratio on Sona's ult = Imbalanced>

100 AP = .1 Second more stun duration.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

11-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the view I think is coloring analysis here - it's the "we've been in a bad space so long, you can't make any, non-power-increase changes." This is a ridiculous notion.

Tanks do awful damage, but have strong bases. They have utility and impact the game, scaling on durability and CDR. At worst, supports can do that (we see those builds on Dominion when they get gold, typically). We wanted to enhance build paths a bit though.

If you want to do big damage, then I actually don't understand why you are playing a support character.

MORELLO! Why can't you understand!!!!!

The issue is Annie and Fiddlesticks and co are going to get more gold to deal more damage and gib the laning phase even faster! But they haven't received nerfs to their CC or Damage, but Supports have!

It's fine if supports have to have utility nerfs so that they can scale harder with their utility, but Damage nerfs are ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE in the face of annie and fiddlesticks not getting nerfed for being played support, and getting more gold to kill things faster!