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Undeath, Terror and Acid Hunters: Let's talk Urgot

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Gnaraya

Senior Member

11-14-2013

I don't play him because I feel that he doesn't fulfill an ADC's role as good as some other, more mainstream choices and the utility that he provides for the team is better put on another role's shoulders. Choosing him, to me, feels like a waste of the ADC slot.

Reasons for this, in my opinion, would be his short range, which hinders his ability to kite using a standard ADC build, and his E dependent Qs, which, when missed, severely reduces his damage output and you're left to forcing poor positioning to do decent damage. Against a champion like Ezreal, there really is no comparison.


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Infernal Frenzy

Senior Member

11-14-2013

No thanks. He looks so dirty and ugly to play with. Seriously. Update his Visual then buff his back like before. His kit is alrite. Move on to real issue champ.


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Iffem

Junior Member

11-14-2013

hmmm...
Well, Urgot is pretty much the only Marksman I seem to do any sort of well with.
Right now his Strengths are: Great sustained damage, higher tankiness than most Marksmen because of the kinds of builds he uses, and his passive makes him disproportionately stronger than the enemy.
His weaknesses are: Stupidly situational Ult (most games I don't even see a place I could use it), lack of sustain (though this is kind of a common thing on AD casters, as there is no AD spellvamp), a weirdly short AA range given the rest of his kit (I personally love if he could do Riven-style Q-AA-Q-AA... combos without being melee range), his Q makes him full-stop (lost so many kills because of this), and his mana problems... oh lord the mana problems...
I think what he needs is AA range and the removal of the movement stop on Q, probably


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YGY818

Senior Member

11-14-2013

I like that he's fat and ugly. Different.
Though Trundle had VU to not look as ugly. IE Pillar of filth into a pillar of ice.
Gameplay: I love that he can lock into things and has an anti-carry role. I feel he has a decent power level that can scare adc.

Being able to launch missiles. It's rewarding being able to land that E and harass away.


His AA range.. I feel forced sometimes to farm with Q.
He can't farm without mana.
I wish the Q-E combo was used as harass, not farm too. I want more build variety.
He has HORRIBLE range and attack speed scaling.
No on hits or lifesteal on his Q.
Poor mana efficiency.

A balanced Urgot to be is aa range 525, with Q-E range of 700. Let him be a nuke duelist instead of a crazy ranged bomber. Maybe idk.[/B]

Would making him a no skill-cost no-mana champ be too brokenly strong?
Ranged Riven? This would free up Urgot into more builds.


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Jassu

Senior Member

11-14-2013

ADC main here who has played Urgot in both of the solo lanes and the duo lane. I'll go ahead and list off things I like and dislike about him and then shed some insight from experience on it all.

Things I like:

  • Noxian Corrosive Charge + Acid Hunter lock on mechanic.
  • Weaving auto attacks between Acid Hunters when fighting in close range.
  • Auto attacks are impactful despite being primarily a caster.
  • The option to lane in both solo lanes and the duo lane while building either squishy marksman or tanky ranged bruiser.
  • Slow from Terror Capacitor for chasing and kiting.

Things I dislike:
  • The entirety of his kit—a bit too much stuff and some things not interacting well with each other.
  • His ultimate for the most part.
  • Auto attack animation.
  • Overall "old" feel to his model.
  • Forced to smart cast Acid Hunter.

Now for some details, starting with what I like:
  • Noxian Corrosive Charge's interaction with Acid Hunter seems to be the impetus behind his gameplay and kit design. He's AD-based with a short range auto attack, but can effectively attack from almost triple his auto attack range while playing and feeling like a caster. I think that is core to Urgot and should stay no matter what.
  • Given that he's AD-based, his auto attacks will inherently be stronger than most casters, especially when building as a squishy marksman. As such, I find it really fun when I can effectively weave auto attacks between my Acid Hunters when fighting at close range—it allows for additional skill differentiation and mastery.
  • I've successfully played him solo top, solo mid, and duo bot. I absolutely love that I can effectively lane him anywhere, for it gives me freedom to first pick him with safety while also making him easier to fit on a team. I would love if that could remain the same, but I can understand it getting changed if it's overall for the better.
  • I think it's really cool that he has build diversity, despite being a marksman. What's more is that he can successfully be played as either a squishy marksman or a tanky ranged fighter across all levels of play. It creates additional freedom in placing him on a team while retaining the ability to utilize the same strengths in two distinct manners. Given those aspects, he has good flexibility for a team, allowing him to play as the team's primary or secondary marksman (if you opt to run double marksmen) or as a beefy mid line fighter who can effectively assault the enemy back line or peel for your back line.

And details on the things I dislike:
  • While the Noxian Corrosive Charge and Acid Hunter interaction is really cool, the rest of his kit feels really weird in relation to that. Even though his passive and Terror Capacitor slow apply on Acid Hunter, they both feel like excess power in odd ways.
  • Zaun-Touched Bolt Augmenter is pretty much invisible power—it can feel really hard to notice or appreciate unless you or someone else survives with extremely low health. Despite that, it's extremely powerful, most especially when laning or skirmishing/dueling. Factor in low degree of counter play to it and it becomes apparent that the passive is really costly in terms of kit power (that is, it inherently makes other, fun aspects of his kit weaker for a large amount of difficulty-to-appreciate-and-avoid power).
  • I really enjoy the slow from Terror Capacitor, especially since it's applied on Acid Hunter, for it allows me to chase, kite, and peel pretty well. I have to wonder, however, whether or not Urgot should have that power. Given his kit's inherent tankiness through Terror Capacitor's shielding and his ult's free resistances, should he also have the added utility of chase potential, slipperiness, and peeling for allies? I can't say for sure, but I also can't deny how good it feels to have the slow on autos and Acid Hunters.
  • Hyper-Kinetic Position Reverser is an interesting one. If you're tanky fighter Urgot, it can be really useful and effective to swap an enemy team's squishy member into a good spot for your team to annihilate. If you're squishy marksman Urgot, its use is both less intuitive and useful. The best use for it when you're squishy marksman Urgot is to essentially buy you or someone else in your back line time and additional space from a member of the opposing team diving you guys .While useful, it certainly doesn't feel as impactful and can sometimes make the bonus resistances go to waste or put you into a really bad spot even with the resistances. Another thing to point out is how crappy the rank 1 range feels, but I also understand how powerful it is and that the low range makes it so Urgot's level 6 power spike (especially in the duo lane) isn't insane. It's also pretty lame to fight against it because it's a point-and-click suppression that can only be dealt with by not being in range of it or QSS/Mercurial Scimitar. : \
  • Generally speaking, his kit doesn't feel super cohesive. The interactions with Acid Hunter are awesome, but his ultimate certainly doesn't fit in with that, his passive is too much power without gameplay, and all of the free tankiness doesn't fully make sense when you're a ranged marksman and caster. Although some of that contributes to his flexibility, I feel like it'd be better to focus gameplay a bit more in one direction. As for me, I'd prefer him to be more marksman/caster/DPS-oriented than fighter-oriented.
  • His auto attack animation sucks. It feels unresponsive, the particle is boring and can be hard to see, and I'm not entirely sure what it's supposed to be. He feels really dated altogether, and it'd be really great if he could get some visual improvement (especially on his animations so they don't feel as clunky or annoying).
  • Also, the lack of an option to normal cast Acid Hunter (pressing Q to bring up the target circle and then clicking where to cast it) made him kind of annoying to pick up. Even now, I'm not 100% sure of the width of the projectile and still miss with it.

Eesh, I talked a lot more about the dislikes than the likes. :x
I really love playing Urgot, though—he's a lot of fun to me and I feel effective at all stages of the game! I guess it's just easier for me to pinpoint and discuss the things I dislike about him. Anyway, super long post. Hope the feedback helps!


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Typhnox

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Why was this thread posted at 1:30 AM?


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Comedy Kat

Member

11-14-2013

I'd also like to add, please don't Trundle him and make him into a new champion simply because people find him "Ugly"!


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Alice Twilight

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Meddler:
Hey all,

Urgot's a champion we haven't talked much about recently and one who's fallen out of sight after we reduced his power a while back. That's something we'd like to look at - reanimated undead monstrosity with powerful, heavy weapons and a mighty hatred's a cool concept that we're not doing justice at the moment. As a result we'll be doing some work on Urgot's kit next year, experimenting to find out what we need to do to preserve (or enhance) the cool aspects about him, while fixing the problems that lead us to nerfing him heavily in the past. That'll take a while, as a starting point though I thought it'd be great to get a bunch of thoughts from people on Urgot, both what he currently is and what he's got the potential to be.

If you play Urgot, what is it that appeals to you about him, both in terms of theme and gameplay? Which of his abilities define what it's like to play Urgot for you? If you don't play Urgot, are there particular reasons you're not interested in doing so?

When playing as Urgot are there things that feel unnecessarily difficult to do or ineffective? When playing against Urgot are there things that feel unfair?

General thoughts/comments also extremely welcome. One disclaimer though - at the moment at least we're only looking to work on Urgot's gameplay, not do a full overhaul of him, so while we'll assummedly give Urgot a visual upgrade at some point it'll be a separate, later project.
I kinda feel that his kit as is, is doing him justice the problem is his power level. I like playing him mid rather than bot with a support and that probably affects my experience but I'll try to outline my thoughts. For starters at least in the client he's very poorly labeled, he's a bad marksman because his optimal build path doesn't support crit and his AA range is horribly low. And I don't really consider him a tank either, more of a fighter because he neither has EPIC CC nor enough long term damage potential without a substantial gold investment for cleaver and Muramana (throw in frozen heart and that's his core). His passive is good, it lets him win trades but it's also easy to unappreciated and I find any hard engage I'd normally try to make with him don't need it to tip the scales in his favor because I try to take advantage of his poke with locked on Q. His Q is pretty good, granted it needs to be because it often feels more like his auto attack than his actual auto attack. His E is a very good skill, travel time means it can be tricking to predict and hit the enemy and they have a shot at reacting to it, and the way it combos with his Q is perfect. His ult is weird and another reason he absolutely can't be a markseman, because swapping with an enemy and putting yourself in the middle of the enemy team, even with the bonus defensive stats is suicidal with marksman build paths being so squishy. I also feel like you want me to use it to start a fight but unless someone is way out of position or you can combo with an ally it's usually better to save. The suppression by itself can be amazing though as seen with champions like Malzahar, it's a good skill but it just reinforces that he's not a marksman. And also it lets you make some awesome plays http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRAqzC4PBv4

Oh and his shield is, ok, I don't have much to say about it, it's just a shield, I guess it combos with his ult well but the slow is meh until later ranks.

Overall I think Urgot's biggest problem is his complete lack of identity. I understand this was more reasons he's labeled badly than my personal thoughts on him, or rather his badly labeled because not even his kit knows what he wants to do. Either way he's going to have to undergo significant changes. I'll miss him but I realize at this point he's super niche and could use the exposure.

Oh and also this:
Quote:
Comedy Kat:
I'd also like to add, please don't Trundle him and make him into a new champion simply because people find him "Ugly"!


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Cether

Senior Member

11-14-2013

I've only played Urgot a few times but he's got the makings of a champ I'd really like if only his kit wasn't all over the place and his ult wasn't a suicide button.

So first off: I love his E -> Q gameplay. It is rewarding to land them, but I don't like the visual indicators on his E when playing against it, and I don't like having to try and figure out the casting/travel time or the exact AoE when casting it.

My first proposed change is make a small green circle with an x indicating "This is the hurt zone" that appears when cast with a static travel time when cast. This increases counter play and makes it easier to use at the same time. If you manage to land your E you deserve to have the pain train that is going to happen.

Secondly, why is his W a shield? Like a boring "this is a shield nothing but a shield" ability? Like yes it makes his attacks slow, but his auto range is already super low for a ranged champ, so a slowing attack isn't particularly useful because you can't kite with it. Unless he's the former of my next point which is...

Is Urgot supposed to be a bruiser or ADC? Because if he's a bruiser the slowing mechanic is useful even though he has a short range. If he's an ADC he needs a shield that does something more useful (like increase his range on his abilities and autos or something). Overall Urgots identity feels like he's half bruiser and half adc, and is so split between these two things he can't do either efficiently.

And my final point- that ult. Why? I mean really, why? He has to CC himself for an ult that puts him into danger when he has no escapes at all. Not to mention the CC is pretty terrible when compared to many other CC's that other champs have on both ults and normal abilities. I mean look at it: It's single target, it CC's Urgot, it does no damage, it puts Urgot in huge danger while only making him moderately tankier. Compare that to any other champions ults or common abilities have CC or target displacement. Hell even the range on it is pretty underwhelming. As a giant man/robot of death why not extrapulate on what makes him cool. For example, give him an ult where he covers an area in rocket fire, and all of those rockets are actually functioning versions of his E. Hell, that one change might even be enough to make him viable currently.

Overall, I feel Urgots abilities by themselves are underwhelming, his identity as a champion (what role am I?) is murky as all hell, and his kit is all over the place because of the prior two problems. Not to mention his ult is incredibly weird and in most situations more painful to Urgot than it is to his opponents.


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KAOChosen

Senior Member

11-14-2013

I used to main Urgot (mid lane in particular) in s2, and no one believed me when I said it was secretly op. Suddenly it starts seeing play at high level and my at the time fav champion gets nerfed into the ground. Unlike most people who played him, I always played him as a tank, not an ADC. Damage reduction, Armor / MR, Shield, Displacement(swap), Long range single target slow, that is what Urgot means to me. Since almost all of Urgot's damage is tied into his E + Q combo, I could never justify putting him as a carry, it felt better to swap a squishy into your team and rain acid hunters on anyone stupid enough to try to fight you. Which is why I don't enjoy Urgot currently. His ult had both it's range and its stats nerfed, and it feels completely unsatisfying anymore. Even trying to USE his ult is a frustrating experience at low levels. It only has 550 range at rank one, which makes you waddle into most champs poke for little to no reward. What I would like to see done with his kit is to push him more towards being a tanky initiator. If you try to balance him around being an ADC, I feel he will be quickly outclassed by more mobile, and stronger choices.

Specifics:

Passive - Despite being extremely powerful, I don't think most people actually know what his passive does. It is one of the elements I enjoy most about him however. I think it does probably need to be changed from a flat 15%, probably something closer to stackable 7% per stack stacking up to 3 times. That add more focus on hunting down a single target in a team fight, and shutting them off of damage.

Q-Range feels low, mana cost feels high, damage feels low. Because he has low base range, this is his major way of trading in lane. However, because he has to combo it with his E before it has a decent range, it takes huge amounts of mana to do any amount of harass, and it doesn't even feel very rewarding. Maybe in a dream world it could apply on hit effects, but that might be a bit extreme.

W- Again, do most people even know that while its up it gives Q / auto a slow? Probably not. One point wonder, that only adds more mana costs into his combo for a 20% slow (more at later ranks, but I never max it early). Scales off of ap, so doesn't feel strong at all.

E- This is what makes or breaks urgot's lane phase. Landing E is a guaranteed chunk of hp off the target, and is where I assume most of the frustration of fighting him comes from. While he does need SOME downtime between E's to add room for counter play, I feel 15 is way to long. Again, has a lot hidden power on it with the 20% AOE armor shred. If anything would have to go in order to have Urgot have more power other places, I wouldn't mind seeing the reduction go.

R- This is, too me, the single most fun aspect of Urgot. High risk / high reward initiation that has conterplay in that you can stun him to break the channel. What I would like to see is to increase its horrible low level range. In addition to that, the armor / mr suffer from the same problems Yi's W did, in that pen changes the amount of damage it reduces pretty drastically. Could probably be replaced with % Damage Reduction to help smooth it out. Also, the slow after feels kinda underwhelming, but its a swap, so it doesn't particularly matter I guess.

I didn't mean to write this much, but I hope my words can help restore the headsmans pride to his former glory.