@Riot: Your jungle item changes are pretty heavy nerfs. Just thought you should know.

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Sammystorm

Senior Member

11-02-2013

I guess we will have to wait and see but I am not exactly waiting with baited breath. You promised carry junglers in season 2 and didn't deliver and just made the jungle less open.


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Hidden Sniper

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Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
The S3 jungle items were as a whole, very undercosted due to the reduced revenue stream junglers had. This could be seen by the number of times we had to nerf the items because they were so efficient that laners were just buying them in spite of the suboptimal build path and 'throwaway stats'.

The junglers in the preseason are currently more than doing well with the 'nerfed items' as they have a much improved exp and gold flow in the jungle. I realize that from looking at the numbers alone it is easy to feel that jungling has become more difficult and less rewarding but I am very confident that it is not the case.

Smite deals 80% damage but has half the cooldown. Almost all the monster stat increases were due to this one change, and I am still receiving consistent feedback that the jungle is too easy early on.
Also much less downtime and less predictability due to the new camp more than makes up for the slightly reduced rewards they offer individually.
This is what I don't understand, why not buff jungle gold and increase costs rather than nerfing?

It almost feels like you guys go the opposite way on everything because you feel something might become overpowered. Honestly, I think you should just go back to Season 1. That was by far the best and most satisfying season, for I think just about any role. Things like Deathcap were implemented, heart of gold, etc.

Overall I feel like you guys have adopted a "fix what isn't broken" attitude. Feeling the need to fix things just for the sake of changing them.


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MercsGuardian

Senior Member

11-02-2013

So I'm looking at this (http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/10...-nasus-vu.html) and your post, and I got one thing to say...what is your problem again, so instead of Solo top, Jungle we have Duo Top...there, problem solved. Or we could actually look and realize that a lot of today's junglers have natural sustain (Zac, Nasus, Fiddle, Elise, Maokai, etc.) or the fact that we are getting a fourth regen camp(Wights) next to the blue buff. So this is ok...deal with it.


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shppy

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullettime7 View Post
Noticed that as well on the PBE. Playing with jungle Gangplank (carry jungler who's supposed to be more competitive,) I'm far better off just rushing Tiamat. I end up with more gold overall from getting a PvP item that helps in ganks and clears faster. Going for the jungle items feels like putting putting myself in debt for the next 10 minutes to break even THEN get a lead, and offers junglers nothing for their role during the period they need it (early to early-mid transition.) You end up going into the early-mid dragon fights even further behind laners than we are now if you invest in them. God help you if you lose jungle control. Even if we end up with more gold late game, it still doesn't feel very good.

Yeah, yesterday I was just playing around with numbers to project what my jungle Leona build would be in S4, cuz I initially was bummed out that my usual Tiamat rush (which offers me that huge power spike in PvP in addition to clearing power) might need to give way to a SotAG rush so that i could get the farm enhancer early (or possibly Wriggle's, or SotEL like I used to do, though that would be garbage now for her with it only being procced on physical damage).

So basically, I was looking at how big the gold difference would be between rushing a Tiamat then SotAG, compared to rushing a SotAG then Tiamat. Well... Tiamat currently takes me roughly 7-8 minutes of farming, so stalling on SotAG until I finish a Tiamat would mean missing out on, at a maximum, about 320 gold from the generator.

But rushing Tiamat also allows me to clear faster in the meantime (and with a 4th camp it'll no longer be a problem to clear TOO fast and have to wait around, which is a 'problem' i currently get with Tiamat if I have nowhere to gank), so I'd have a greater cs rushing Tiamat. And Tiamat is also much, much stronger in PvP and ganking... hell, if it can give me one more kill or two more assists than I could get with SotAG, it's 'paid' for the lack of rushing the gold generator from that alone. And in my experience, it nets me considerably more than 2 assists or a single kill beyond what SotAG does right now (hell with it I tend to assassinate bots or mids solo a couple times a game, and just once is enough).

So yeah, given that experience, I concluded that rushing Tiamat will still be better for my farm AND presence. And if that's the case... since SotAG is now a heavy investment in gold generating and jungle clearing, and by the time I typically finish it (after rushing Tiamat) currently in S3 I'm not spending too much further time in the jungle anyway, that means the gold generator and monster damage won't be worthwhile to acquire that late in S4, so I'd just be better off ignoring it altogether and getting some other legit tank item instead.

And that concept can pretty much be spread to just about any jungler than can use Tiamat, whether they would use SotAG, SotEL, or wriggle's otherwise. Which pretty much nullifies the use of wriggle's and SotEL, and makes SotAG only useful on caster-tanks.


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Durzaka

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden Sniper View Post
This is what I don't understand, why not buff jungle gold and increase costs rather than nerfing?

It almost feels like you guys go the opposite way on everything because you feel something might become overpowered. Honestly, I think you should just go back to Season 1. That was by far the best and most satisfying season, for I think just about any role. Things like Deathcap were implemented, heart of gold, etc.

Overall I feel like you guys have adopted a "fix what isn't broken" attitude. Feeling the need to fix things just for the sake of changing them.

They dont want laners taking all of the jungle farm if they increase the gold.


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shppy

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden Sniper View Post
This is what I don't understand, why not buff jungle gold and increase costs rather than nerfing?

It almost feels like you guys go the opposite way on everything because you feel something might become overpowered. Honestly, I think you should just go back to Season 1. That was by far the best and most satisfying season, for I think just about any role. Things like Deathcap were implemented, heart of gold, etc.

Overall I feel like you guys have adopted a "fix what isn't broken" attitude. Feeling the need to fix things just for the sake of changing them.

Cuz that would make poaching worse. However, they could have reasonably tied increased gold to smite, instead of the jungle items, since Riot's already established that they want junglers to have to take smite.


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Daedälus

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Hey Solcrushed i know this is off topic but... could you post an update on the viktor rework thread please...


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RadiantWings

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Senior Member

11-02-2013

Why don't you guys just make Spiritstone into the new Eleisa's Miracle?

A lot of jungle complaints stem from the fact that people don't want to just build items to jungle, they want to build items to help their team. The fact that the spirit items were so cost efficient was really a sort of "we hear you and so we're giving you these stats to help out."

What really didn't help was that jungle items gave a spread of stats that you can't get anywhere else. AD/CDR is in short supply, AP/SV/CDR only existed on that item, and Golem is the only other item that tanks can use to get tenacity so that they can still build Ninja Tabi vs. a physical oriented team that happens to have lots of CC.

So how about Spiritstone getting buffed to 25% increased jungle damage + increased gold gain, and have an Eleisa's Miracle effect where "After killing 20-30 Large jungle monsters, Spiritstone's effect becomes permanent and the item is consumed." Then you proceed with your plans to create "laning" versions of those jungle items like how WotA is being converted into the new SotSW.


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shppy

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantWings View Post
Why don't you guys just make Spiritstone into the new Eleisa's Miracle?

A lot of jungle complaints stem from the fact that people don't want to just build items to jungle, they want to build items to help their team. The fact that the spirit items were so cost efficient was really a sort of "we hear you and so we're giving you these stats to help out."

What really didn't help was that jungle items gave a spread of stats that you can't get anywhere else. AD/CDR is in short supply, AP/SV/CDR only existed on that item, and Golem is the only other item that tanks can use to get tenacity so that they can still build Ninja Tabi vs. a physical oriented team that happens to have lots of CC.

So how about Spiritstone getting buffed to 25% increased jungle damage + increased gold gain, and have an Eleisa's Miracle effect where "After killing 20-30 Large jungle monsters, Spiritstone's effect becomes permanent and the item is consumed."

And then proceed with your plans to create "laning" versions of those jungle items like how WotA is being converted into the new SotSW.
I'd go with an increased monster gold passive on smite and just leave the jungle items alone, but that's not a bad idea either, frankly.


At least then junglers wouldn't feel obligated to drop 2k on items with mediocre-at-best pvp strength and no upgrade... burning only 700 and not fooling yourself into believing the upgrade is worthwhile sounds much better.


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shppy

Senior Member

11-03-2013

bump