@Riot: Your jungle item changes are pretty heavy nerfs. Just thought you should know.

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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

11-02-2013

My one concern about this whole thing is what your goal is.

Are you trying to force players into the lategame? It feels like making early game plays is extremely punishing. Both Invading and Ganking seem extremely risky and unfavorable now, it feels like your trying to water down the game into this "Every lane including Jungle just Farm farm farm".

If i invade, not only could i be losing out of a lot of levels, killing the guy dosent guareentee to slow him down at all, given the new gold and jungle set up. Same with ganks, why take the risk 2 gank super warded lanes and lose out on levels while the enemy jungler gets tons?

It feels like your crapping on the early game, which is what i find most fun about this game, and aiming everything toards the late. Is this what you want? it certainly not what i define as fun though.


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TheBigMuff

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by orghak 12 View Post
You seem upset. There's a difference between testing this internally and it actually reaching live. Just because you've convinced yourself that your balance choices are infallible does not mean they are. Tell me, what's your sample size? Who are you using for these tests? Are they developers? Have you actually run the numbers on total Jungle income along game progression?
There is a point to the pre season afterall... least from my view there is three parts, dev testing, PBE testing, then pre-season testing, each getting bigger as it goes along for more data


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shppy

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post
Love when Reds come by and slap a good "You lack information" post.

People always crying over unfinalized changes are so hilariously misguided, they never listen to reason unless someone "official" shows up. Thanks for the laugh.


Lacking some information won't likely change my post about the items being nerfed... unless the information I lack is something ridiculously heavy like blanket nerfs to ALL items, or a reduction in small camp respawn times combined with some mastery/mechanic that enables junglers to actually clear the entire thing jungle in less than 50 seconds, or a massive extension in the amount of time spent in laning/farming across all roles (which would be hard to force anyway), I've got the relevant information to say the jungle items are nerfed.

SotAG will make the user weaker in PvP than they currently are with it for 10 minutes at an absolute minimum. SotEL and SotSW will do the same for ~5 minutes even assuming unrealistically efficient jungling and ganking, and in reality would take about 7-8 minutes or more. And while wriggle's gives a little different type of power than it does is S3 (AS instead of AD/Lifesteal), it will provide less PvP value for ~5 minutes even assuming impossibly efficient jungling, and in reality will probably take about 7-8 minutes or more as well.

The jungle items' contributions will be weaker. Whatever masteries data I'm missing and whatever other changes (within reason) that Riot's making doesn't change that. If the overall jungle looks good, fine, I'll test it out when it hits live and see, but I'm confident that *if* it feels good, it's not because of the items.

But if Riot is intentionally draining PvP power out of the jungle items to try to lessen their ganking power and impact, fine, it's their game and they can go whatever direction they want with it, but it's not going to work. Not once people realize that they don't have to build jungler items just because they're junglers, they can build PvP items to help them clear the jungle.


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Djiimon

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
No, I am saying 'your math and logic lacks about 40% of the necessary input to reach an accurate conclusion'

Which is not the OP's fault, it is due to the PBE not having the new camp and masteries at the same time with all the other changes.
So uh, Viktor...Yea...any word on that?


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shppy

Senior Member

11-02-2013

bump


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DragonsEyeG

Senior Member

11-02-2013

The jungle changes are jungle nerfs. Either no one will ever jungle again or just ditch the remade items and just get stat items like a vamp scepter. Riot fails so hard at this..

hate this or not, it's the truth and whats going to happen with the remade jungle and jungle items.


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Venowolf

Senior Member

11-02-2013

What about of tanky junglers??? Sejuani and Zac for example hurt's really hard the nerf of "Spirit of ancient golem" 350hp from 500hp is much nerf, maybe 400hp is more fairly but 350hp hurt's a lot!


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shppy

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venowolf View Post
What about of tanky junglers??? Sejuani and Zac for example hurt's really hard the nerf of "Spirit of ancient golem" 350hp from 500hp is much nerf, maybe 400hp is more fairly but 350hp hurt's a lot!
It'll hit them the hardest. They're losing about as much in PvP stats as the others, but the gold generator on SotAG has a much lower (albeit a bit more reliable) potential, maxing out at 40 gold per minute.


Which is why on my Leona, with the projected changes, I won't bother anymore. I'd be better off just rushing Tiamat, same as I do now... except I won't finish turning the machete/spirit stone into a SotAG afterwords (which is what I currently do), I'd be better off putting that money into a Randuin's or a Sunfire or Aegis, something with PvP potential, cuz SotAG won't pay for itself relative to its S3 stats for at least 10 minutes after finishing it and I really don't care about having a stronger increased monster damage passive (tiamat outdoes it in that regard anyway). Sucks for magic damage tank junglers though, there's not a particularly comparable rush item for them without using the jungle items (Sej can probably pull off a Tiamat pretty well though; Naut too)


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Bullettime7

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by shppy View Post
It'll hit them the hardest. They're losing about as much in PvP stats as the others, but the gold generator on SotAG has a much lower (albeit a bit more reliable) potential, maxing out at 40 gold per minute.


Which is why on my Leona, with the projected changes, I won't bother anymore. I'd be better off just rushing Tiamat, same as I do now... except I won't finish turning the machete/spirit stone into a SotAG afterwords (which is what I currently do), I'd be better off putting that money into a Randuin's or a Sunfire or Aegis, something with PvP potential, cuz SotAG won't pay for itself relative to its S3 stats for at least 10 minutes after finishing it and I really don't care about having a stronger increased monster damage passive (tiamat outdoes it in that regard anyway). Sucks for magic damage tank junglers though, there's not a particularly comparable rush item for them without using the jungle items (Sej can probably pull off a Tiamat pretty well though; Naut too)
Noticed that as well on the PBE. Playing with jungle Gangplank (carry jungler who's supposed to be more competitive,) I'm far better off just rushing Tiamat. I end up with more gold overall from getting a PvP item that helps in ganks and clears faster. Going for the jungle items feels like putting putting myself in debt for the next 10 minutes to break even THEN get a lead, and offers junglers nothing for their role during the period they need it (early to early-mid transition.) You end up going into the early-mid dragon fights even further behind laners than we are now if you invest in them. God help you if you lose jungle control. Even if we end up with more gold late game, it still doesn't feel very good.


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shppy

Senior Member

11-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonsEyeG View Post
The jungle changes are jungle nerfs. Either no one will ever jungle again or just ditch the remade items and just get stat items like a vamp scepter. Riot fails so hard at this..

hate this or not, it's the truth and whats going to happen with the remade jungle and jungle items.
The jungle overall isn't getting nerfed. It will contain more gold and xp for reliable farming, and the increase in gold/xp available should outweigh the extra time it'll take to clear it. Smite having a reduced cooldown will partially offset that extra time and the extra damage this new Wight camp will dish out. (Again, I still wish Blue buff would be reworked though, it shouldn't be mana-oriented, it just causes issues with mana vs manaless junglers and issues with feeling obligated to donate it to mid).

It's just the items that are pretty undeniably nerfed, unless there's some very drastic across-all-lanes gamechanging data we haven't been made aware of yet that would result in all other items being nerfed harder or result in greatly longer game times (which would give the jungle items more time to actually pay off).