@Riot: Your jungle item changes are pretty heavy nerfs. Just thought you should know.

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shppy

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar of Typhon View Post
They've historically had problems with ez. But idk, that's all I could think of for it to see why they changed it. I guess they've got a lot of confidence in a bigger gold income for junglers and don't want snowbally AD junglers having more power than intended?

Also, why the heck is brutalizer in there? That's really weird.
there is no brutalizer in there, i was referring to the fact that in PBE SotEL is 25AD and 10% cdr, just like brutalizer, only with a true damage DoT instead of armor pen (which relatively speaking probably breaks about even in most cases in terms of added damage). Meaning SotEL is essentially just a brutalizer + spirit stone, resulting in a dead-end and a bunch of gold sunk into disappearing stats (regen), and nothing to salvage the weak PvP stats except a gold generating passive that *might* be able to make up for the fact that lategame about 750 of the gold you threw into the item is now worthless.


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Wirius

Senior Member

11-01-2013

I love how you guys act like Riot isn't considering all of the potential issues you guys are putting forth. What ever you think you know, they know it 5 times better.


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Vegas Dad

Senior Member

11-01-2013

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Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
No, I am saying 'your math and logic lacks about 40% of the necessary input to reach an accurate conclusion'

Which is not the OP's fault, it is due to the PBE not having the new camp and masteries at the same time with all the other changes.

I think your still being blinded to the point that the traditional purpose of the junglers is not to still solo in the jungle playing pve for 40 minutes. So even if you want to take the stance that a camp is missing, your failing to acknowledge lanes will still take camps, and that if i farm non stop for 30 minutes to pay back these poorly thought items, it means i never left the jungle.

You guys are really ****ting the bed with your jungle direction. I dont know if it is on purpose or what but it seems like your trying to prevent junglers from ever ganking. Sorry personally I dont want the jungle to turn into some boring pve farming session for 30 minutes which is the direction you are pushing it.


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Vegas Dad

Senior Member

11-01-2013

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Originally Posted by Wirius View Post
I love how you guys act like Riot isn't considering all of the potential issues you guys are putting forth. What ever you think you know, they know it 5 times better.

right that would explain the yi remake? or the zillion champions they had ot nerf and buff or renerf rebuff ? kk.

so little staff of riot >>> collective experience and knowledge of the million players who play their game non stop ....what next the moon is made of cheese?


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Vsin

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
The S3 jungle items were as a whole, very undercosted due to the reduced revenue stream junglers had. This could be seen by the number of times we had to nerf the items because they were so efficient that laners were just buying them in spite of the suboptimal build path and 'throwaway stats'.

The junglers in the preseason are currently more than doing well with the 'nerfed items' as they have a much improved exp and gold flow in the jungle. I realize that from looking at the numbers alone it is easy to feel that jungling has become more difficult and less rewarding but I am very confident that it is not the case.

Smite deals 80% damage but has half the cooldown. Almost all the monster stat increases were due to this one change, and I am still receiving consistent feedback that the jungle is too easy early on.
Also much less downtime and less predictability due to the new camp more than makes up for the slightly reduced rewards they offer individually.
Sorry, but looking at these new items can only run the conclusion that they all suck horribly for way too long while you wait for the gold passives to kick in.

You're really forgetting one very important point: What if I stop at Spirit Stone or Madred's Razor? I'm still clearing the Jungle faster than any of my allies, and I haven't thrown away upwards of 600g for the potential to rake in another 600g yet without as much ability to enable it (lower stats, weaker ganks, less map presence, yadda yadda). Those items build relatively cheaply out of the still-mandatory Machete, and despite their inefficiency the raw gold margin isn't nearly as severe as the upgraded versions.

So, I can go Machete > 400g Clear item > Kage's/Executioner/Avarice (not Philo, you won't be sitting on dying waves...) and still get my solid gold generation, only now with items that don't suck horribly.

Sorry, but I'm going to repeat myself again: Jungle conditionals only result in terrible items. We'll either never touch them because the stats suck, or everyone will abuse them because you get stats on top of conditionals.


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redz

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post

The junglers in the preseason are currently more than doing well with the 'nerfed items' as they have a much improved exp and gold flow in the jungle. I realize that from looking at the numbers alone it is easy to feel that jungling has become more difficult and less rewarding but I am very confident that it is not the case.

Smite deals 80% damage but has half the cooldown. Almost all the monster stat increases were due to this one change, and I am still receiving consistent feedback that the jungle is too easy early on.
Also much less downtime and less predictability due to the new camp more than makes up for the slightly reduced rewards they offer individually.

lol.
it's not the player VS monsters that's troubling us, but rather the pvp.
lots of stats that are useless when you really need them, like ganking.


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LordTobiothan

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
The S3 jungle items were as a whole, very undercosted due to the reduced revenue stream junglers had. This could be seen by the number of times we had to nerf the items because they were so efficient that laners were just buying them in spite of the suboptimal build path and 'throwaway stats'.

The junglers in the preseason are currently more than doing well with the 'nerfed items' as they have a much improved exp and gold flow in the jungle. I realize that from looking at the numbers alone it is easy to feel that jungling has become more difficult and less rewarding but I am very confident that it is not the case.

Smite deals 80% damage but has half the cooldown. Almost all the monster stat increases were due to this one change, and I am still receiving consistent feedback that the jungle is too easy early on.
Also much less downtime and less predictability due to the new camp more than makes up for the slightly reduced rewards they offer individually.
All you've said here is that the items are intentionally weak because junglers can do well without super cost efficiency due to having much more gold and already doing well before that change.

What that doesn't address is giving junglers a reason to buy the jungler items. I'm already making more then before without buying these trash efficiency items. Why would I buy them at all? They are making me literally 0 gold (as math in the OP has shown).


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Nilous7

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Is there a reason you guys combined the old jungle items with new farming strategies? I feel it shoe-horns specific champs into farming/gold revenue styles, or forces them to use specific items.

Like let's look at a few champs who previously loved the old "jungle items." Vlad loved Spectral Wraith, cause it was the more optimal/better stated selfish spell vamp item. Lane Fiddlesticks loved it as well. Now, you have Spectral Wraith changed to return mana and health when you cast spells on monsters. That's cool, and interesting. It changed the item, while making it a jungle farm item. That's fine.

But Spirit of the Elder Lizard, it was used by Hecarim for just a little bit more team wide damage. Ezreal used it to get in more poke damage. This is because of the added DoT effect. That's fine. But some champions didn't really care about that burn damage. Now you also made that the ganking item. I don't seen that burn effect being in accord to the "I want to gank a lot" item. As well, laning champions who previously wanted that item want it more now to snowball in lane.

Versus the spirit of the ancient golem, that is now a farming item. But its still the tank item? What about Jarvan, Maokai, or Amumu who want to gank often, but still build tanky? Again, there's a difference in playstyle there.

Then you took Wriggle's Lantern, which already was criticized for not bringing enough late-game or team fight stats, and reduced the team-fight stats. But it's fine... it's the committed farmer's item, that they'll just want to sell later. Or am I wrong?

Why not change the previous Spectral Wraith, Ancient Golem, Elder Lizard, and Wriggle's Lantern into non-farm-related items and make specific money-gathering items for how the jungler wants to play. Let the jungler choose their playstyle, and still build the way they want, without forcing their end game stats to dictate how they get their gold.

Thanks. Sorry for the rant.


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shppy

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by redz View Post
lol.
it's not the player VS monsters that's troubling us, but rather the pvp.
lots of stats that are useless when you really need them, like ganking.
exactly. As a jungler with these S4 items, we'll be decidedly weaker in PvP from the point we finish them to the point where the gold generator pays for the stats lost in from the nerfs, which will be, as i mentioned, about the ~8 minute to ~15 minute frame at least, and depending on when the jungler is forced to ease up on jungling and work primarily on objectives, that time very well might not even come. That's a big nerf, and for my money I'd much rather have a tall powerspike around hitting ~2000 gold that levels out for a while afterwords rather than a near-nonexistent powerspike around ~2000 gold that ramps up slowly until finally matching the former case around 8 minutes later and only exceeding it if I can actually stay in the jungle instead of taking objectives.


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DreamsOfGrandeur

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Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
No, I am saying 'your math and logic lacks about 40% of the necessary input to reach an accurate conclusion'

Which is not the OP's fault, it is due to the PBE not having the new camp and masteries at the same time with all the other changes.
Love when Reds come by and slap a good "You lack information" post.

People always crying over unfinalized changes are so hilariously misguided, they never listen to reason unless someone "official" shows up. Thanks for the laugh.



Quote:
Originally Posted by redz View Post
lol.
it's not the player VS monsters that's troubling us, but rather the pvp.
lots of stats that are useless when you really need them, like ganking.
The point of the changes is to reduce the need for ganking.

That's why they're introducing the new camp, the trinkets that make ganking substantially more difficult, etc..

They're effectively making the Jungle into a make-shift lane, so ganking can become more of an option, less of a mandatory duty.