@Riot: Your jungle item changes are pretty heavy nerfs. Just thought you should know.

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DragonsEyeG

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
The S3 jungle items were as a whole, very undercosted due to the reduced revenue stream junglers had. This could be seen by the number of times we had to nerf the items because they were so efficient that laners were just buying them in spite of the suboptimal build path and 'throwaway stats'.

The junglers in the preseason are currently more than doing well with the 'nerfed items' as they have a much improved exp and gold flow in the jungle. I realize that from looking at the numbers alone it is easy to feel that jungling has become more difficult and less rewarding but I am very confident that it is not the case.

Smite deals 80% damage but has half the cooldown. Almost all the monster stat increases were due to this one change, and I am still receiving consistent feedback that the jungle is too easy early on.
Also much less downtime and less predictability due to the new camp more than makes up for the slightly reduced rewards they offer individually.
i dont care what your feed back is saying, because i think your honestly just going to end up killing jungle and/or the items used. I will rather pick up a vamp scepter for the life steal then any jungle item now.

EDIT:LoL love the hate but it's soooo true. Riot fails so hard now and you will all realize I'm right.


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cocacolalips

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Remember when at the end of season 2, they said they were going to overhaul the jungle and the bottom lane so there is more gold and experience for both the jungler and the support?

We got a machete and the pickpocket mastery.

Never forget.


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xProR2D2x

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
No, I am saying 'your math and logic lacks about 40% of the necessary input to reach an accurate conclusion'

Which is not the OP's fault, it is due to the PBE not having the new camp and masteries at the same time with all the other changes.
Will you change or nerf the Red and Blue buff? Right now they are worth large amount of gold in stats, and even though its nice to address the late-game jungle income, I would like to see the early-game power spike of junglers addressed as well.


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THEJJSLAY

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
No, I am saying 'your math and logic lacks about 40% of the necessary input to reach an accurate conclusion'

Which is not the OP's fault, it is due to the PBE not having the new camp and masteries at the same time with all the other changes.
I think the main problem is that it is almost to jungle orientated, I mean, you only actually 'jungle' during the laning phase and all these jungle passives really don't help in a teamfight.
But I'm in bronze so what do I know


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KnightxSScarlett

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Just gonna wait until preseason to tell Riot they $#@!ed up the jungle. I like how they're already making support champs OP. Inb4 everyone calls support.


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LoLKiru

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
No, I am saying 'your math and logic lacks about 40% of the necessary input to reach an accurate conclusion'

Which is not the OP's fault, it is due to the PBE not having the new camp and masteries at the same time with all the other changes.
Pretty much this, it would be unfair to jump to conclusions without seeing the whole picture. Thus i'll reserve my judgement until I see everything there is to see.


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Rikitik

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Anyone else disturbed by the fact that you cannot get a 'butcher' item if you go for lantern?
I mean I understand the limit to gold passives, but this means it's a decision between 40% more monster gold or 30% more damage to monsters...


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aceofsween

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
No, I am saying 'your math and logic lacks about 40% of the necessary input to reach an accurate conclusion'

Which is not the OP's fault, it is due to the PBE not having the new camp and masteries at the same time with all the other changes.
There is an underlying problem here though. No matter which way you look at it, Junglers are going to be behind laners in terms of combat statistics by the time the mid game rolls around because they've had to invest a considerable amount of their early game income into items that offer consolation jungle bonus at the cost of those combat stats everyone else is investing in. Even with Wriggle's Lantern, which costs the least and offers the most in terms of gold potential gain, the actual combat stats are ridiculously over priced. I think it's something like 1230 gold in actual stats vs. an 1800 gold cost. I don't really think it's fair to penalize junlgers for investing in this items this way. Especially when you consider that champions that want a Wriggles (Jax, Yi, etc) are going to need a lot of gold. 570 gold for the passives is a lot to swallow, especially since none of them offer anything in terms of actually combat advantages. Dropping the cost down to about 1500 gold would be a lot easier to swallow. The passives on Wriggle's would come in at ~270 gold. And at least then you're only going to be putting about the cost of a BF Sword, which again seems pretty fair.


Side topic:
While we're talking about Wriggles, was there ever a discussion about the usefulness of the ward passive? I just can't see the need for it these days with sightstones and trinkets (especially trinkets). I'm sure that alone is eating up a lot of it's gold efficiency... Also, do champions like Trynd, Jax, and Yi really want the armor it comes with anymore? Just wondering if these S1 hold overs are still necessary these days.


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Kchaosrei

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Senior Member

11-01-2013

i am not liking the fact that i can not get a jungle item and the Shurelya's Reverie if i wanted to . They are mutually exclusive now. I am being told that as a jungler i cant get utility if thats what i need to start fights.


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shppy

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
The S3 jungle items were as a whole, very undercosted due to the reduced revenue stream junglers had. This could be seen by the number of times we had to nerf the items because they were so efficient that laners were just buying them in spite of the suboptimal build path and 'throwaway stats'.

The junglers in the preseason are currently more than doing well with the 'nerfed items' as they have a much improved exp and gold flow in the jungle. I realize that from looking at the numbers alone it is easy to feel that jungling has become more difficult and less rewarding but I am very confident that it is not the case.

Smite deals 80% damage but has half the cooldown. Almost all the monster stat increases were due to this one change, and I am still receiving consistent feedback that the jungle is too easy early on.
Also much less downtime and less predictability due to the new camp more than makes up for the slightly reduced rewards they offer individually.



Thanks for the input, really. However, my qualm isn't actually with projections for jungling as a whole in S4, it's with the items themselves.


If the jungle changes are actually looking good right now, great, but I really doubt it's because of the jungle items... actually, I'd be inclined to think it's happened *despite* them. I already have plenty of experience substituting Tiamat in place of SotEL, Wriggle's, and even SotAG right now (My jungle Leona build, of all things, rushes Tiamat and it got me to Diamond). It helps me clear faster than any of those, is far stronger in PvP, and isn't even a dead-end... honestly it's way better unless you need mana regen, and that can be worked around.

So with that knowledge in mind, when you drain 400-600 immediate gold value out of those jungle items, and I see that it'll take me about 8-10 minutes realistically for the gold generation to catch me up to the current S3 strength of those items, I think to myself: "screw them, I'll just get a Tiamat, get the same power-spike as I did in S3, use it to farm faster than any of the jungle items allow me to do (tried and tested, Tiamat clears faster than any of them right now, and with only SotSW getting any damage buff at all it will continue to be so in S4), use that power-spike to pull off ganks that I can't pull off with the jungle items (because it's actually, you know, fully *useful* outside the jungle), and so be it if I don't make extra income off monster kills just to earn back the extra funds I threw away on a gold generator/jungle-only damage amp, I'll easily make up for it by clearing more quickly and pulling off more ganks, the same way I do right now.

Honestly, I feel sorry for the junglers that can't use Tiamat (so basically the magic damage ones or pure tanks), because they're gonna be stuck with the burden of ~8-10 minute debt (relative to S3) these jungle items will bring.


I like the sounds of the other jungle changes, I really do (although, if you ask me, it'd help a lot to change Blue Buff outright to not be mana regen and instead be something legitimately useful to all junglers that won't create viability issues between manaless and mana-using junglers, while also dramatically reducing the burden of giving away a buff camp to mid... just increase the mana-restore on small-camp leaders to compensate). The new camp sounds great, if I've got nowhere to gank I hate having to wait around for a camp to respawn because I can make a round of all the small camps in under 50 seconds. The adjusted numbers look pretty good overall, and a shorter cd smite sounds cool (albeit a little necessary, considering that Wight's hp, looks like he's nearly always gonna be the victim)

But yeah, it honestly sounds to me like these new jungle items are (unintentionally, I assume) nerfs disguised as buffs, and that people will be lulled into believing they're responsible for making a better S4 jungle when the reality is they're not actually helping the junglers at all, it's just the other changes that will actually be helping while the items' contributions will be the same or worse. Cuz while I may not have all the info on the S4 jungle as a whole, it certainly looks like I've got the relevant info on the items themselves, and even being exceedingly generous with my estimations, they still look like they're getting nerfed pretty hard.


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