@Riot: Your jungle item changes are pretty heavy nerfs. Just thought you should know.

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shppy

Senior Member

11-01-2013

It's great that they're getting gold generating passives, but they're coming at a serious cost to PvP ability in each case, and the increased gold isn't going to make up for it within a reasonable timeframe. Allow me to elaborate.


-Ancient Golem is losing 150 health, worth roughly 400 gold. Ancient Golem's new Conservation passive can grant, at best, 40 gold per minute on average. It'd take a bare minimum of 10 minutes (of purely efficient use of the passive no less, meaning you never go more than 45 seconds without killing a large monster) after acquiring Ancient Golem for the increased gold to pay for the cost of the health you're stripping out of it.

-Elder Lizard is losing 10 AD (when it's already considered pitifully weak). Granted a pittance of that will be made up for with the passive DoT 'buff' (which is also accompanied by a nerf for what few valid users remain), but even so, that's 360 gold taken away. The gold it can produce, estimating quite generously, would be roughly 75 gold per minute (killing all 4 large monster every 50 second, 2 buff camps every 5 minutes assuming you get to keep both, and a kill or assist every 2 minutes, pretty damned generous all around). So that's gonna take roughly 5 minutes of near-perfectly efficient jungling to pay for the lost stats, and in reality will take a fair bit longer than that... I estimate roughly 8 minutes in reality, and even that's probably generous for any objective-oriented jungle player.

-Spectral wraith is gaining 10 AP, worth about 200, but losing 20% spell vamp, worth about 600 gold (keep in mind i'm talking about pvp strength, replacing spell vamp with monster drain does nothing outside the jungle). So to make up that 400 gold with the same gold generator as SotEL has, it'd take about 40 seconds of perfect jungling longer than SotEL takes, so about 5 1/2 minutes of perfect jungling, and again in reality it will take a fair amount longer.

-Wriggles is losing 15% lifesteal (in exchange for jungle-only sustain, again), 5 armor, and 25 AD, worth 600, 100, and 900 gold respectively, and gaining roughly 800 gold worth of attack speed instead, making it take a net loss of 800 gold value while only dropping 200 in cost... still 600 short of what it is currently. For the 40% increased monster gold to make up for that, you'd need to make 1500 gold off of monsters, which on average (assuming you take the buffs and clear every single pack immediately as it respawns, you average ~309 gold per minute) would take just under 5 minutes... again, that's expecting ludicrously unreachable efficiency (especially for wriggle's users, who are largely single-target), and would in reality take several minutes longer.



This amounts to two big problems with the new items:

A) The lower PvP stats on the items themselves means junglers will be weaker than they currently are from the point in which they finish the item until the point in which the gold passive pays for the lost stats (so basically, junglers are going to be notably weaker than they are now from about the 7-8 minute mark until around the 15-16 minute mark, and considerably longer than that for SotAG users)

B) With the current pace of the game, it's quite possible that junglers will never even make up for those lost stats anyway... like I said, it's likely gonna take until the 15 minute mark or so til they can make up the difference in extra gold generation even IF they're fairly dedicated to farming the jungle as opposed to dealing with game objectives, and we're all aware that the jungler can't realistically keep jungling that late (unless you've got some seriously heavy changes planned to draw games out longer)

So yeah, that pretty much means the items themselves aren't likely to pay off much if at all, and that combined with the much weaker power-spike from finishing the item means junglers are gonna be getting hurt pretty badly from these changes. Take it from a dedicated Diamond jungler with a knack for numbers, this doesn't look promising.


I know you've got the best intentions, but if this is what you're gonna try to implement, don't be surprised when I forgo upgrading a machete and just rush a Tiamat (whether i would otherwise be a SotEL, SotAG, or wriggle's jungler, sorry SotSW users), clear quickly and safely, and retain a large amount of PvP strength. And don't be surprised a few months later when everyone else has caught on and is doing the same.


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RuneKatashima

Senior Member

11-01-2013

You should read my thread too. Junglers are getting nerfed and somehow they don't even realize it.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...php?p=42675840


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True Sketch

Senior Member

11-01-2013

They don't want junglers to interact with anybody. Just stay in the forest until ~30 minutes.


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CarePoliceLoL

Member

11-01-2013

It's sad that they nerf everything again. Season 5 completed items will have worse stats than their components and you will have to decide what's better. Slot efficiency and passive or more stats. This is where this game is going and I don't like that.


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Felfire

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Sketch View Post
They don't want junglers to interact with anybody. Just stay in the forest until ~30 minutes.
im fine with that if laners lane for 30 min


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0xiDIzE

Member

11-01-2013

Well when you consider that the jungle in general is going to give more gold/exp even without taking these items into account, I think it'll be okay. You just pick one, use it to farm for 15 minutes, then sell it for something else. Or if the items really are that bad, people just won't build them and Riot will buff them eventually.


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Vsin

Senior Member

11-01-2013

I think I've dumped this point in every single thread about Jungle items, but...

If you're going to make an item with Jungle conditionals, it's either going to be brokenly overpowered because the stats are on par with everything else on top of the conditional, or it's going to be uselessly underpowered because you had to include the conditional in the gold value.

Only now it's even worse because you're stacking Gold Generation conditionals on top of Jungle conditionals, thus requiring you to absolutely murder the gold efficiency of the stats in order to balance the possibility of the gold generated and increased Jungle speed.

I've said it several times since Riot proposed new Jungle items, but I absolutely hate the idea and am baffled that Riot still wants to force these items even though the existing ones are universal balance failures (except maybe Golem).


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RuneKatashima

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xiDIzE View Post
Well when you consider that the jungle in general is going to give more gold/exp even without taking these items into account, I think it'll be okay. You just pick one, use it to farm for 15 minutes, then sell it for something else. Or if the items really are that bad, people just won't build them and Riot will buff them eventually.
Nothing says that. Their changes to the jungle mobs actually have them lower the gold/xp rewards and increase hp and damage.
If you're talking about levels those only help if you're behind.


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shppy

Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xiDIzE View Post
Well when you consider that the jungle in general is going to give more gold/exp even without taking these items into account, I think it'll be okay. You just pick one, use it to farm for 15 minutes, then sell it for something else. Or if the items really are that bad, people just won't build them and Riot will buff them eventually.


eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that.


I mean, yes, in total there's more xp and gold available due to the new camp... the total xp for the small camps combined went up by about 27%, and the gold went up by 31%, but keep in mind that it also will take longer to clear now that there's another camp available... I'd estimate it would take roughly 20-25% longer to 'clear the jungle' than before (the small camps only, I mean), which means the gold/time and xp/time is only slightly better. And the buff camps lost a decent amount of xp (-60 gold for each buff camp) as well as a slight amount of gold.


Also keep in mind that towers will no longer grant as much money to the rest of the team, which will often mean the jungler won't be getting as much gold as towers fall... all in all, I'd say the other sources of gold in the game for the jungler is going to even out and be the same as it was before, aside from these gold generator items... and like i said, chances are the gold generators aren't gonna be able to pay for the nerfs they're taking (and even if they do the jungler will be weaker until those nerfs are paid for), so all-in-all the proposed changes are pretty much a straight nerf to anyone that jungles at a decent skill level (as in, anyone that actually cares about team objectives instead of just farming the jungle til 25 minutes in)


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invincible13matt

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Senior Member

11-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xiDIzE View Post
Well when you consider that the jungle in general is going to give more gold/exp even without taking these items into account, I think it'll be okay. You just pick one, use it to farm for 15 minutes, then sell it for something else. Or if the items really are that bad, people just won't build them and Riot will buff them eventually.
Didn't Riot say that the jungle was going to yield more gold last season?

I think at this point, we're better off casting a grim eye on what we're seeing so far because it certainly didn't pan out that way the first time they tried to do it.


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