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Item Nerfs - Care to explain?

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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-15-2010

Quote:
You aren't forced to do anything, thats a false dichotomy there buddy.
True. We aren't forced to do anything. But then the statement that 'there were no complaints about it' in the OP's statement would have few implications on how it relates to nerfing or buffing anything in general.

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Well tank items do play a role in the tanky DPS meta, yet the only reason why tank DPS are able to kill is because they have DPS. L2FigureOutProblems.
Multiply a character's DPS by their survivability, and you get their total effective damage output over a fight, based on how long they can survive in it.

We've felt that the issue has been that survivability stats are too easy to acquire, hence the nerf. We don't want ignorable unkillable rocks in the game.

I mean, I guess we could make 'League of Brick Walls', if you wanted to play that. We'd rather have threatening but easier to kill guys than ignorable unkillable rocks. I agree that both paths would solve tanky DPS.

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Why would supports feel gipped that its only "ok" on tanks, that makes zero sense, they shouldn't care about that it sucks on a tank if they play a support where the items better.
To keep locket doing the same functionality, you would have to nerf the item. This would affect both supports and tanks alike. Since the item is OP on tanks while okay on supports, after the nerf, the item would be okay on tanks and horrible on supports because the regeneration/restoration numbers would have to be severely nerfed to the point in which it would no longer feel fun to get.

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Hey lets throw logic in a hole and cover it up with a blanket for this one guys. Yes SOTD would be better because it gives 15% MORE AS. NO starks would not be acceptable by this logic because it gives the same amount of AS and no one buys starks for the AS, I mean according to you you would just buy a recurve bow instead. You might as well take recurve bow out of Madrids since people get it for the passive not the AS, and Wit's end because you get it for the passive not the AS . All by your logic that is.
The OP stated that he got Last Whisper for the Attack Speed. My post's intent was to inform him that he probably got it for the combination of Attack Speed and Armor Penetration.

In no way was the post supposed to say that we only want people to get an item for one effect or that we wanted to streamline items down this path. Sorry for the implication. I was directly answering the OP in his claim that he got it for the attack speed solely.

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So riot changes item stats based on what the reasons high tier players use them for. What about all the low tier players riot? Didn't they get PD because of the dodge chance?
The OP made the claim that Jax was especially screwed by this change. High-Tier players didn't even consider PD a good item on Jax. If PD was not good on Jax, the item theoretically that he benefits the most from, who would PD be good on?

If lower-tier players are getting PD regardless of how effective it is, when the overall assessment that it is a bad item even on the champion that benefits the most from... then it is a clear sign that the item is a newbie trap and needs to be reworked in some way.

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In fact lower the cost of an IE if you want to make that not a universal carry item and have a cheap crit item. Oh hey lets look back, you wanted a less tank/DPS mg?! Well lets kill two birds with one stone and get your cheap crit item and lower the dmg on it. About as game changing as everything else you have already done anyway.
Not sure how this ties in. We like the fact that IE is a powerful high-end item. But the more we thought about it, it was more the synergies that IE has with surrounding items that independently had more issues than IE itself. Thus, we chose to fix the surrounding item issues rather than try to cover them up by making IE a cheap non-damaging item.


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AntiTcb

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Xypherous, you deserve a medal. Seriously. You try so hard to provide answers to soothe players, but there's always someone that gets outraged, and you even then try to soothe them as well.

You keep on tweaking things until they're perfect. Perhaps one day, everyone will be happy with the changes that are made to items.


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Malcara

Junior Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Kurzicide:
Why were these items nerfed if no one complained? What was the point, exactly?

Last Whisper: the go-to item for any attack speed champion. Tristana, Twisted Fate, Twitch, etc. used this item for it's powerful attack speed bonus. My TF build was personally completely messed up by this nerf. The biggest nerf of the patch, in my opinion.

Infinity Edge: while this was a small nerf, what was the reason exactly? No one complained about it before.

Randiun's Omen: a nerf that affects many tanks. One of the must-have items for any tank.

Innervating Locket: removed? Why? I never have used any champs that needed this item, but why remove it?

Phantom Dancer: dodge was removed. Zeal's dodge just goes away after buying PD? Lol. Personally used this with TF also. Dodge was useful here-and-there when using it on TF. One of the must-haves for Jax.

Banshee's Veil: never cared to buy this item, but the nerf was still pointless. Many people choose to use this item for tanks or practically anything.

This is what I don't like about Riot. They don't explain their reasonings for nerfing certain things. They just do it because they can. For anyone that has played Guild Wars before, I think Riot should follow ArenaNet by telling us why they nerf certain skills/items.


I've never had a problem with people spending 25 mins in an enemies base unless the game was near over so Innervating Locket had nothing to do with it. I believe that was Riot's response to ehy it was removed. It was a casters item and now my Malzahar and Morganna build is completely screwed up. I'm haveing trouble finding a suitable item to replace it. Furthermore whats the deal with the Doran's Blade nerf it was a great starting item. It wasn't over powered in fact most peaople replaced it as soon as they racked up some gold. These Items need to be unnerfed. (if thats a word) Finally if you are going to get rid of the phantom dancer's dodge buff then more items with dodge stats need to be designed and implimented because right now Ninja Tabi is only dodge item, The Doran's Blade and and Phantom Dancer nerfs wrecked my Kennen Build.
Stop wasting time on new skins and champs as much as we like diversity and spend some quality time on new items, runes, masteries, maybe even a seperate mastery page with different stat types, and ast but not least new maps and game varients. have 2 or more 5 v 5 and 3 v3 maps as well as more than one game variant that away every time you queue its some other then one team pushing another's nexus. You could also add a head to head solo map and maybe even a big team battle map.


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Splenetic

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Xypherous:
There's a reason why the tanky DPS meta was so strong. A large part of it was that almost all the tank items were overpowered.


Hey, thanks for the detailed explanations. This is all fairly informative to a new player like me, who is still learning when it's appropriate to buy which items.

However, with regards to that one specific point, I am slightly confused. For some tank champions, some late-game hp5 items (Force of Nature in particular) feel inefficient cost-wise, as opposed to simply stacking negatron cloaks. It makes sense if it's an hour into the game and you have 5k gold but you're running out of inventory space, because it's a powerful item in absolute terms. But most of the time, stacking negatron cloaks seems like a much better deal unless you have some kind of synergy with hp5, such as Mordekaiser's or Mundo's. The pendants add a lot to the cost without adding a lot to the power of the item.

Does Riot plan to buff hp5? Late-game it seems more important to have hp/armor/mr to survive an encounter with the other team, while early-game spamming health pots seems more cost-efficient.*

As a result of my inexperience, this post might be too dumb to warrant an official response from Riot, so I would appreciate anyone's input.


*Going off the price of a regrowth pendant, a point of hp5 costs 29 gold. For the 35 gold that a health pot costs, you can buy about 1.2 points of hp5. It will take more than 800 seconds, which is more than 13 minutes, of running around with 1.2 points of hp5 before they heal 200 health. It will be even more if you run around with full health some of the time. If instead you use potions, you will have more gold because you won't buy them all at once, allowing you to buy other items earlier, making gold farming faster and easier, whether you are farming minions or killing other players. Additionally, potions provide bursts of 50 hp5 (200 health over 20 seconds), which provides better survivability early-game than a permanent hp5 item.


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Hoboqueen

Member

12-15-2010

@ Splenetic

You are quite right in assuming that hp5 is a bad team fight stat in its current state. Riot has said so many times before in their posts. This is (in my opinion) how the game should operate.

Think about it.

Xypherous just said so in this thread that Riot doesn't want immovable tanks with no damage in the game. If hp5 was buffed it would just enable the tanks to have crazy staying power.

IMHO not every single stat has to be a balanced trade-off. Regen or health? Most of the time health is a better option. But some champs do need the regen (morde for example)

Your analysis of using health pots instead of buying a regen item at the start puts a smile on my face. You are well on your way to becoming a most powerful summoner.

I hope that answered your question.


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The Lu Bu

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
The OP stated that he got Last Whisper for the Attack Speed. My post's intent was to inform him that he probably got it for the combination of Attack Speed and Armor Penetration.

In no way was the post supposed to say that we only want people to get an item for one effect or that we wanted to streamline items down this path. Sorry for the implication. I was directly answering the OP in his claim that he got it for the attack speed solely.


Once more you didnt really respond to the question we got it because it was a 2 in 1 there are a lot of attack damage items and very few attack speed items. I need armor pen I need attack speed and damage on one hand I have a bloodthirster and a lastwhisper in the other I have bloodthirster and the new last whisper. Not only does the new last whisper have greatly reduced effectiveness but now it lacks any verstility. Thanks Riot hire people who actually play the game to do the nerfing from now on please.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-15-2010

In a nutshell, yes. You should be in that state.

We thought that getting attack speed and armor penetration on the same item made ranged carries too easy to itemize for and accounted for a large part of their power. Because they could stack critical strike, attack speed, armor penetration, attack damage, crit damage and only have to buy two items to do so. That's all five multiplicative attack damage statistics in two items. Pretty crazy. :3

As to versatility, well, I suppose you could make that claim but Last Whisper was intended to be an armor buster item rather than a core item on every character that cared about attack damage. Ranged Carries loved it. Everyone else who wanted armor penetration had to bite the bullet and buy 40% attack speed even if attack speed was really bad on that character. (Pantheon, Garen, etc.)

That said, we're well aware of an itemization hole and we'll hopefully get it in next patch. I hear Cleaver might want some stats...


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Hoboqueen

Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Xypherous:
In a nutshell, yes. You should be in that state.

We thought that getting attack speed and armor penetration on the same item made ranged carries too easy to itemize for and accounted for a large part of their power. Because they could stack critical strike, attack speed, armor penetration, attack damage, crit damage and only have to buy two items to do so. That's all five multiplicative attack damage statistics in two items. Pretty crazy. :3


Hehe. You funny man xypherous.


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Splenetic

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Hoboqueen:
If hp5 was buffed it would just enable the tanks to have crazy staying power.


Ah, that would make sense - thanks for the insight. Then it would be like the innervating locket, huh? The concept is such that either it's relatively useless, or it helps certain champions more than it should.

The only fix I can think of would be to buff hp5 from items overall, but then reduce it based on armor/magic resist the same way damage gets reduced (based on the higher of armor/magic resist, the average, or even having two types of regen scaling on each of them). This would help prevent it from being something tanks can abuse while making it more useful for squishies, but thinking of how much rebalancing this would require makes me cringe.


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Hoboqueen

Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Splenetic:
but thinking of how much rebalancing this would require makes me cringe.


Aye. All in all its good where it is.

Riot would be better off getting magma chamber out , then trying to "fix" any sort of weakness of hp5.