Introducing Team Builder

First Riot Post
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ZzRadio

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Enforcing the meta, how long till we can't build fun ways?


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BelligerentGnu

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZzRadio View Post
Enforcing the meta, how long till we can't build fun ways?
Read the thread. Hell, read the first two *posts*.


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SauronZ

Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruisingPrune View Post
Whats to stop me from queueing up as tanky malphite top so I can have a low queue time and then playing AD SOTD malphite top in game?
Extrapolating this to real life, it's like asking:

what's to stop me from buying knives to slice stakes, and then go killing random people with it instead?

I mean, some people feel bad about making someone else miserable, but some just dont give a fück, and those unfortunately need to be restrained by laws, and ultimately have to be punished and locked up like animals, for the sake of everyone else.


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hadNt

Junior Member

10-16-2013

This would definitely be a great feature! Have been waiting for so long, and you guys did it much better than what I imagined

Just one thing, that I would love to queue for position/role, then pick my champ later to complement my team. (For example, queue for jungler/tank, and pick from Nautilus, Sejuani, Amumu, Jarvan etc., depends on what my team would need. Would like to even have the space to differ from jungler/tank or jungler/fighter according to the situation.)

Hope you would consider this!


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QueenOfErrthang

Senior Member

10-16-2013

What is in place to stop trolls from queuing as support for quick queue times and then not playing the role?


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Pryotra

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Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SauronZ View Post
Extrapolating this to real life, it's like asking:

what's to stop me from buying knives to slice stakes, and then go killing random people with it instead?

I mean, some people feel bad about making someone else miserable, but some just dont give a fück, and those unfortunately need to be restrained by laws, and ultimately have to be punished and locked up like animals, for the sake of everyone else.
That not only ignores the question entirely, it doesn't even attempt to give an even slightly relevant analogy.

There is nothing he did in that scenario that is outside any rules we have. I mean, Malph is tanky as is, and AD SOTD Malphite is technically a build, even if not a popular one. One could see the ignorance card here easily, and so long as he is nice ingame, the tribunal would have very little to make of that. Remember, being bad isn't breaking a rule, just like stupidity isn't illegal, nor will it ever be.

In the end, this is something he could repeatedly do, that would break the intent of the system, without breaking any rules. He raises a valid point, because when you create a system like this, you NEED to address the abuse cases. I am curious what Lyte has on this, because Malph isn't the only case here. For example, what's to stop me from queueing support Annie, and playing AP annie that just eats CS all day? Whats to stop me from calling jungle tank Cho, then duoing top as AP cho? Suppose I queue up as AP Kayle top, then deciding I would rather go AP? Little things like that, destroy the intent of the system without actually breaking any rules. Behavior aside, this is something that could easily make or break this new queue, and should be addressed.

As a side note, are you able to change runes/masteries/summoners after you see the enemy team comp? I am thinking draft mode here obviously, but if this becomes a thing, Making it work for draft raises new concerns. How will bans be handled? What If I feel like I see the enemy team picks, and want to adjust my champ choice to crush the lane? Things like this need to be addressed, because as presented, this system looks terribly clunky.


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hadNt

Junior Member

10-16-2013

Another question: may the solo player see the rest team comp, before he joins the room(and see other summoner's names), just like what team captain could do(to accept/reject others' choice before possibly abusing with 3rd party stat info)?


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davin

Senior User Researcher

10-16-2013
90 of 101 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starvald View Post
The thing is that once you give players, or in this case a Team Leader, the option of saying, "No, I do not want that champion in that role" it changes the whole dynamic of the interaction. In reading your posts you have repeatedly said that "you" (Lyte) would happily accept non-conventional champions in certain roles and that your internal research (davin's group) has shown that "many" players are of a similar mindset, which is all good to me, I love to see odd champs in odd roles however I see several problems with this line of reasoning.
I'm at home right now, so I don't have the data in front of me (meaning I can only give the trends, not digits). For all but two cases of hypothetical team compositions the average of a random sample of players (across the range of skill levels) were varying degrees of positive--super positive when things were "top tier" at the time, very positive when things were in the meta or small deviations thereof, and regular 'ol average positive when the composition was a little nonstandard but the champions were still in viable positions (so no solo Sona). Even compositions featuring one or two champions that weren't considered "common" at the time did well.

So in this case, "many players are ok with" means "the average reaction was a degree of positive". Not a little 10% slice My pedantic self would go nuts if I tried to pass that off as many!

Now, that's across the general playerbase. Which means in certain subgroups (for example, if you're in certain Ranked tiers) perceptions may vary. But since this feature is also going to debut with a more general audience, that should be ok. For something like Ranked we'd need to evaluate some other assumptions and challenges.


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

10-16-2013

First off this system looks beautiful so thanks so much for working on it!

The main point I'd like to make is that I definitely feel there should be some capacity to switch champions once in the "champ select". This is important largely because such an option creates the impetus for tactical chat and communication between the players. The three things you have chosen as the filters are champion, role and position. That means that before there has been any group discussion at all as a 5man team, these three things have all been pre set in stone.

This means that your "tactical" discussion will likely just become a 10second conversation of the players joining the group, looking at the setup and saying either, yes I'm ok with this or no I'm moving on. This isnt always going to be the case but I feel this could easily become the norm. The reason being that this is the only (team) decision that the player has left that they have any control over. To stay or leave. Therefore thats the question on their mind. The only tools left to them to adapt to the situation they find themselves in is their runes and masteries. Thats not usually enough to sway their opinion on whether a certain setup can work (its unlikely you can fix a very odd comp by simply adjusting your runes/masteries since they usually only have a large affect on your personal lane matchup).

However, given the ability to look at a bizarre comp and say, "I can see what you're trying to do here guys, but you know what, you've not thought of this weakness. We need x role in this position instead of y. Why dont I switch to z? Then I think we can make it work!"

To me. That sounds far more like the kind of collaborative teamplay and community building that you're aiming for. I dont want to have to say, "Guys I can see what you're going for, but I can see a flaw. You need to swap this aspect a little because of x. You'll have to kick me and pick a champion with a better initiate tool. Shame I cant just switch to my J4..", "Aah yeah, thanks man! That'll totally work!", "Yup! Good luck, bye..", "bye...." *sniff*

The position you're putting me in is that, if I assess a strat in my head on joining a group and deem that I cant make it work with the current champs, I'll have to leave. Your arguement of "I should create my own game if I want to be in control of the overall strat" is directly counter to your desire to promote tactical discussion within a team. A leader should not be seen as some god who creates a design and should refuse to listen to the comments and tactics suggested by others. Otherwise we would do away with team chat and only allow the leader to type... no, we should encourage the leader to, while always retaining the final say, listen to their team and take on board their advice. And we should give them the tools to adapt when they realise their mistakes, bringing the team closer as a group. Wait isnt that exactly what you said your goal was with this system??

Therefore I stroooongly recommend a feature that allows a vote to switch someones champion. The team leader and the player switching must both agree as well as one more yes vote to allow the switch. Easy and simple.

Of course doing so would reset the ready checks so anyone unhappy with the new setup can then voice their opinion too. The point here is to promote civilised discussion on strategies and allow the team the capacity to adapt and change with the discussion. Ultimately the team might choose to switch up the strat completely. Nothing stops them initially queuing with a duo jungle only to totally redesign it once they have 5 people chatting. Nothing that is, so long as there is that capacity to adapt.




As a totally separate point. Id like to see a trust rating of some kind on players (from a specific report and tribunal punishment) to counter the inevitable trolls who will select one role only to go into the game and deliberately do something entirely different. I want to be able to blackmark their accounts so leaders will know to avoid them in the future. If you agree to a strat and then abandon it you should be harshly punished. Publically.


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Pryotra

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Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SauronZ View Post
I'm not aware of how these things behave in NA server since I dont play here, but in my server it's pretty much more likely to go like this in current champion select:

Player 1 picks Heimer
Player 2 rages
Player 3 Goes AFK
Player 4 Troll picks
Player 5 Goes whatever mode but gets infected by the others toxicity

probably not all of these happens at once, but certainly and surely some of it. sometimes even with not-so-umpopular champions such as Ashe
Due to the bolded part, I can vouch for that behavior in NA. It happens. I used to play heimer, but when I stopped recieving anything even remotely like teamwork, well, that sh!t gets old fast.