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anyone had much time to play with/against the morgana changes?

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Wikiloko

Junior Member

10-13-2013

What are you guys trying to accomplish with Morgana's changes?

This question needs to be answered before we can provide any kind of useful feedback. Knowing your intentions and goals with Morgana will help us identify, collect and post better information.

As of right now, Morgana is a decently viable (in non-top tiers) caster that offers a strange mix of sustained damage with hard CC. She's by no means a top-notch burster (like Zed or Kassadin) nor she is a sustained damage caster (like Cho'Gath). She has a niche position that is hardly filled by anyone else - a safe pusher with some utility.

With the current set of changes, you're basically removing the pushing capabilities of her kit (and some utility as well) and replacing it with conditional sustained damage that requires her to be over-aggressive for farming. Coupled with her low range and low burst potential (compared to other mages) the current iteration of Morgana might wipe her out of the scene.

She's not exactly a hot, contested pick right now. If you're aiming at nerfing her then it's fine, but I'd highly advise against it, since there are other champions in the need of a real balancing effort (both nerfs and buffs).


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Lavaetinn

Member

10-13-2013

Honestly, there's so much % hp right now and I really don't want to have to end up going MPen Morg to get the most of % hp. Morgana's primary problem at the moment is really her damage scaling because her W doesn't do much and her ult is unreliable. It didn't help that late S2 she got nerfed over and over again. I would:

1) As someone else mentioned, give W the Spirit Fire treatment.
2) Increase slow on ult or shift some damage to the initial cast for more reliable output.
3) Buff Dark Shield somehow to keep her utility playstyle (don't think buffing Binding is a good idea, it already has a great ratio and you can't really have a cc longer than 3s...)
4) Maybe give W MR Shred AND % health?
5) Lower her cooldowns? Her CDs are pretty crazy considering their mediocre to begin with damage. Having Dark Binding up more often would make her sooo much more relevant late game.


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TomatoTamago

Senior Member

10-13-2013

Maybe shorten the total duration and increase the damage per second to balance?


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xIPMx Antarctica

Recruiter

10-13-2013

Personally, as a Morgana player, I don't see the Spirit Fire treatment making sense. The DoT of the pool is one of the things that makes her Morgana, and I would hate for it to turn into a frontloaded nuke with pathetic DoT afterwards. Morgana already has strong burst with Q+R, she doesnt need a poke/burst soil. Also, Spirit Fire has a *boom* at the beginning, so it makes sense for the damage to be front-loaded. But does Morgana curse the soil to hit harder in the beginning than at the end? It doesn't seem logical to me.

I understand if the nerf to her early wave clear is intentional, because she is incredibly dominant in lane, and this change will make her less frustrating to play against. That being said, one thing I would like to suggest as a possible change would be to keep a mr debuff on just the first tick. Right now, her combos feel wimpier and awkward. If some kind of small 5-second (or less, idk) mr debuff was given to everyone hit by the first tick, it would at least retain the soil->snare combo feel, and it would give some incentive to actually hit the target with the soil, but she wouldn't be shredding 40 mr every time she landed a soil+binding. I really don't want to lose the awesome feel of her old combos, and trading out the mr shred for damage makes her feel more one-dimensional.


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xIPMx Antarctica

Recruiter

10-13-2013

May I ask, what exactly is the point of the execute part of the soil? I can't figure out a defining use. Is it to make minion farming easier late-game? Because I think the faster ticks accomplish that, possibly more than the execute part, and the minions still get stolen by allies often. Is it to make blue/dragon/baron/supers easier to kill? The damage cap makes it feel like the old 40 mr shred+snare would hit harder on supers/blue, and using the new soil to kill blue buff is terrifying because it feels so much easier for enemies to steal it. Are you trying to encourage Morgana players to end their combo with the soil? None of her spell rotations feel "right" anymore. The one I've found to be the most satisfying damage-wise after the change is ult->ignite->ult2->soil->snare, but I've noticed that when I use that combo, if the damage before the soil doesnt kill them, it's often stolen by an ally, which is frustrating. I'd like to understand the intention behind this change.
Sorry for double-posting, I'm new to this whole forum thing :P


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Riot Morgageddon

Player Support Tech Specialist

10-13-2013

Morgageddon pops in.

OPINION STARTING

I've done a few tests on the PBE.

Standard runes for consistency:

Greater Mark of Magic Penetration x9 (7.8 Magic Pen)
Greater Seal of Scaling Mana Regeneration x9 (10.53 Mana Regen @ level 18)
Greater Glyph of Scaling Cooldown Reduction x9 (10.00% CDR @ level 18)
Greater Quintessence of Scaling Mana Regeneration x3 (12.96 Mana Regen @ level 18)

Totals are 7.8 Magic Pen, 24/5 Mana Regen @ 18 and 10% CDR @ 18

Masteries are standard 21-0-9 for AP casters.

Starting items are boots and 4 pots. As old Morgana, at level 5, I can just clear out the caster minions with a rank 3 W, which if dropped properly, leaves the melee minions at roughly 1 auto each.

On New Morgana, rank 3 W doesn't even come close to the same. It takes 2 autos, or one timed properly, in order to farm the caster minions. The fourth level in W allowed her to grab caster minions.

On old Morgana, at rank 4 W (which is usually 7 and where I then divert points into Q), I easily farm the caster minions, and with waiting a moment for the melee to take damage before I cast W, I also get all the melee minions.

On New Morgana, I can't even get melee minions with rank 4, and 5 is barely.

When fighting enemy mages in mid who had no MR, my W felt more like a double damage type scenario. I could drop a W on them, and watch as the base damage did 32, then see the added damage start at 30 and move up slowly to match. This is most likely due to the base scaling, AP ratios and 3% missing hp. However, my WQ combos felt...lackluster.

I used to drop a W just before my Q hit, for the magic shred and to make the Q hit just a little harder. Now, it doesn't really feel like I'm hitting with any noticeable gain. Granted, late game troll pools (dropping a W on someone running away with ~100 hp) meant instant death, as it used to, but I actually had less gold per game on average than before.

The reason for that is I had to rely on Morgana's slow AA animation and horrendous range in order to farm. Walk into range to farm minions I used to be able to farm safely from range, get poked by targetable or far less mana intensive spells. Decide not to go into AA range, and I lose farm. Not a very good feeling, to have the one aspect of Morgana you expect to fall through.

Without other changes to her spells/champion, I feel that while this may help her late game damage output (Didn't really notice any particular power spikes yet), I feel that this is more harmful than helpful due to the increased difficulty for farming.


OPINION ENDING


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DeanKeaton259

Recruiter

10-13-2013

I think these changes are an overall nerf and they are not warranted at all. Her current tormented soil is much much better late game because it reduces the mr of everyone who stands in it for your entire team. It allows your teammates to do much more damage. Thematically it makes sense that standing in a corrosive soil would eat away at your magic resist over time causing you to take increased damage the longer you stand in it.

These changes would make it harder for Morgana to push in lane and it would make her teamfighting worse. Not sure why she needs these changes. I think she is fine as is.

Also, Morello just went into a long rant about not wanting to make the new Sivir "homogenized" like the other ad carries. So why is it okay to make Morgana "homogenized?" I recall seeing a red post saying that using the % missing hp mechanic on her w fits with all of the other champions that use it.

But don't you care about the fact that Morgana is unique in the sense that her w is different? Something that is fun and different should not be changed unless it is overpowered. I don't think anyone is claiming that her tormented soil is overpowered, so why change it?

You guys should focus on fixing someone like Mordekaiser or Dr. Mundo who are both not in a good place right now. Both received significant nerfs pre-season 3 and have completely dropped off the map due to them not being updated at all to compete with all of the other champions who have been retuned for season 3.

TLDR: Morgana is not overpowered. Tormented soil is not overpowered. Changing tormented soil would be an overall nerf to Morgana's teamfighting and laning. Tormented soil is a fun and unique ability that people enjoy using.


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cimbop

Senior Member

10-13-2013

I really think what would solve that issue Morgageddon, is if they gave Morg's W the Riven Ult treatment, just made it deal increasing damage as the target gets lower health. So make it deal up to 30% or so extra damage if the target is below half health etc.

This would make it still good against minions and still good against champs late and best of all, I can't stress this point enough, it would keep her scaling relevant. With the new change she has less emphasis on scaling since it's just a static amount of execute damage. There's no room for player skill, a great player and an awful one will still deal 3% execute damage per tick and in my opinion that's just boring. I get that this would help her if she were behind / playing support but I think my way would be a lot more interesting and reinforce her Mid playstyle.

That or, another idea, make her W ramp up in damage over time, first tick deals 100%, then 110%, etc up to the last tick dealing 150% damage, this would make it great against stationary targets (minions), and there'd be a lot of gameplay revolving around waiting for big CC opportunities to get the most damage out.

Just my thoughts.


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Verlux

Member

10-13-2013

Riot Morgageddon said it's a nerf, then it's indefinitely a nerf, he could probably also prove it to you with advanced engineering magics.


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Z32

Senior Member

10-13-2013

So regarding these Morgana changes I want to toss in my 2 cents.

Morg has always been a 'fire and forget' sort of champion. You drop your snare, drop your pool and walk away. If you want to all in, you drop all of that and then ult and wait for the enemy to die.

The only specifically skillful elements of Morgana's kit came from aiming her Q, application of her spellshield (timing, choosing the right target to shield, etc.) and one other piece of her kit. That other piece was in adjusting her spell rotations around the magic resistance shred from her tormented soil.

Allow me to explain: While Morgana's bread and butter combo involved first landing a snare and then following up with her remaining spells, this was not the only way Morgana can combo her abilities. The pool can be used as a zoning tool, by placing the pool first, you can guide an enemy champion to retreat off of the pool first in a predictable manner, setting up for a higher-damage Q that exploits the magic resist shred. Similarly, against melee enemies, you can use the pool defensively to ramp up the power of the rest of your burst damage, and also the healing from your passive. I have even seen Morgana's lead with their ult, place the pool in the enemy champion's retreat path so that the slow on her ultimate will prevent them from stepping off the pool before being subject to a substantial MR shred, and then Q last, once the stun from her ult has procced, so that the Q can take full benefit both from the MR shred and the stun ensuring the target can't dodge.

Morgana's Q and R obviously synergize with tormented soil because they both prevent their target from moving off the affected area. However, the 'old' version of tormented soil also synergized with the rest of her kit because the MR shred allowed it to amp the damage of any spell that came afterwards. This 2-way synergy created a kit that rewarded the player for being creative and inventive with the way they managed their cooldowns, always being forced to trade off the maximum strength of one scenario (pool first, max shred) vs another (ult first, guaranteed snare. Snare first, max duration pool) based on that players judgement and technical skill.

In this sense, the new Tormented Soil is problematic because dealing bonus damage based on a % of missing health does not create any sort of interesting dynamics between the rest of her spells, or niche use-cases that reward a player for being creative. The opposite, it makes a player feel punished for using tormented soil too early in a fight. You're now rewarded most for using it last, when your ult and Q have dealt their full damage, which either means always leading Q->ult->soil so that the soil's execute gets the max benefit from your burst, or leading ult->wait for stun->Q->soil. I'd argue that reinforcing that second case is a very unhealthy gameplay pattern for morgana, because it essentially allows her to steamroll her opponent if she is more powerful, and is virtually inescapable unless the other laner has an escape skill or flashes. That abusive "steamroll" all-in is being supported by a built in DoT execute that synergizes with the chain of immobilizations that morgana can dish out and ignite.

Hopefully the difference and why one situation is health and good, and another unhealthy and bad is clear. As an execute, tormented soil only really supports the case where Morgana chains all of her CC to keep her target immobilized for the maximum amount of time, to allow the soil to do its maximum damage (damage available to it at rank 1). As an MR shred, Morgana is encouraged to avoid the straight CC chain, because it leaves her with no cooldowns to use once the soil has applied its MR shred, and instead encourages her to use varied rotations based on situation and personal ability in order to get the most out of the MR shred wherever possible, both to increase her damage to a specific target, and to increase her survivability (via her passive) in a dangerous situation.

If Morgana's balance is being addressed, it is reasonable to begin by addressing Tormented Soil, but be aware that if you are removing the Mr shred from the ability, it is absolutely necessary that you compensate by adding skillfull decisionmaking into another part of her kit. Morgana is already a champion that has to make very few decisions, and removing this aspect of her kit makes her rather braindead to play. The execute, however, does not create any meaningful decisions, because there is only ever 1 combination of abilities that takes full advantage of it in all cases. If you intend to change Tormented Soil, I would strongly recommend finding a more meaningful substitute than what you have right now.