New Ahri vs Old Ahri Graphs (Math)

First Riot Post
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Strident

Senior Member

10-11-2013

[RED POST. MY RESPONSE APPENDED.]

There is a true damage amplification table included in the attachments.

Bump to spread the word.

As you all know, Ahri is facing a very heavy handed nerf. But how hard you ask? I did the math to find out her:

  • Difference in Maximum Burst @ lvl1-18 with and without DFG (burning all 3 R's)
  • Difference in Ambient Damage from R during Maximum Burst
  • Difference in Single Target Q-W Damage
  • Difference in Single Target Q-W-E Damage
  • Sum of Differences in Single Target Q-W and Q-W-E Damage (represents her consistent damage)

I tested damages at 6 different common item sets and assumed 4 points in Archmage, 4 points in Blast, 3 points in mental force, and flat AP Quins.

Excel file is included for people to check my math.

Item Set Legend
A. 2 Doran's Rings
B. 2 Doran's Rings + Deathfire Grasp
C. 2 Doran's Rings + Deathfire Grasp + Rabadon's Deathcap
D. 1 Doran's Ring + Deathfire Grasp + Rabadon's Deathcap + Void Staff
E. 1 Doran's Ring + Deathfire Grasp + Rabadon's Deathcap + Zhonya's Hourglass
F. 1 Doran's Ring + Deathfire Grasp + Rabadon's Deathcap + Void Staff + Zhonya's Hourglass + One 80 AP Item + Elixir of Brilliance (assumed to be 40 AP)

Assumed skill order: Max R->Q->W->E, getting E at level 2 and W at level 4.

tl:dr -
Ahri single target burst stays the same if you only have dfg and doran's. From there, any AP you get is comparatively worse to the current iteration.

Ahri ambient damage from R goes down by at least 100 no matter what. Any AP makes this worse compared to live Ahri, scaling up to 700 damage lost overall.

Missing charm makes you lose 120-300 damage compared to live ahri.

Even if you land charm, you lose between 15-60 damage in the time you are fighting until your E is up.

UPDATE 1:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEGITIVITY View Post
For those who are interested, the maximum additional damage returned by an Liandry's at 30 different current HP's is linked below.

Assumption is that for the four seconds of amp, liandries is constantly being applied. Formula is AMP*(0.02*currentHP + 0.01*(currentHP - totalAMP*(currentHP - 0.02*currentHP) + totalAMP*(currentHP - [0.02*currentHP + 0.01*(currentHP - totalAMP*(currentHP - 0.02*currentHP)]).
Excel File: Ahri Damage.xls

This is the damage change of roughly every 12 seconds of using basic skills, assuming charm was landed.
Name:  2 Rotation Damage Change.jpg
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This is the single target damage with DFG change added to the best case ambient damage loss from Spirit Rush against amplified targets.
Name:  Overall Burst Change with DFG.jpg
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Same as above, without DFG used.
Name:  Overall Burst Change without DFG.jpg
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This is the damage difference of a Q-W combo.
Name:  Q-W Rotation Damage Change.jpg
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This is the damage difference of a Q-W-E combo.
Name:  Q-W-E Rotation Damage Change.jpg
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These are data tables that give the exact numbers of the points plotted in overall and single target burst changes. Damage losses are warm and neutral colors. Damage gains are cool colors. 0 is the exception and is yellow.
Name:  Single and Overall Burst Change Tables.jpg
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This is the damage difference of a full burst against a single target using a DFG.
Name:  Single Target Burst Change with DFG.jpg
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Same as above, without DFG.
Name:  Single Target Burst Change without DFG.jpg
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UPDATE 2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEGITIVITY View Post
Name:  ahri nerfed.jpg
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Save the fox.
UPDATE 3: 50 upvotes. Get the message out.

UPDATE 4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEGITIVITY View Post
There is only one song that can describe my feelings about this situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYGiKH6dbGs
UPDATE 5: 100 upvotes thanks for the support guys
UPDATE 6: 200; It's really cool how you guys are supporting all this hard work (like 4 hours of it)! Thanks!
UPDATE 7: A little late, but happy 300!
UPDATE 8: Added captions to help explain the graphs
UPDATE 9: Updated graphs to take into account base damage change due to amplified true damage on orb back. Note that this means the difference favors the new Ahri ever so slightly as enemy MR increases.
UPDATE 10: 400 and a red. This is my response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEGITIVITY View Post
I think you are misunderstanding why the overall damage change graph is important. The reason why is that you keep looking at it from the perspective of "assassin Ahri" rather than "mage Ahri". And yes, they have similar items regardless. Mage Ahri and Assassin Ahri are playstyles rather than itemization styles. The whole reason why we care about this graph of damage is because it is a significant blow to mage Ahri rather than assassin Ahri. And mage Ahri is focused on team fighting and peeling for your own ADC rather than detonating the enemy ADC. In a team fight, are Essence Bolts going to hit minions? No, they aren't. They will hit champions and those champions are taking 700 less damage combined in the case that you even land Charm and that you spam your ultimate to get the added damage in the 4 seconds the debuff is active. Otherwise, R just loses 315 more damage.

We are posting this either because you haven't been clear on the direction Riot wants take Ahri or that Riot is unintentionally targeting mage Ahri. If you want to weaken a specific playstyle of Ahri (which is mage Ahri), then say it outright. But from our perspective, you are targeting assassin Ahri and you have stated your goals as being "make her hit charm more to get that assassin damage". What I am trying to show you is that you are also making her playstyle more binary by forcing her further into this assassin niche.

So in other words, Riot also has some responsibility to take. I don't think you all have been totally clear on the direction you want to take her, or rather, have avoided addressing questions about it in respect to the way mage Ahri has been damaged.

If you want to talk about overall damage numbers, yes, they are not on the post by themselves. I included an excel file for people who want to see the numbers. As I said, I posted the numbers I cared about (which pertain to mage Ahri) and you want to see the numbers you care about. There is a case of miscommunication between us; I addressed Riot's direction towards nerfing Ahri with the graphs that were relevant towards what I interpreted as Riot's direction. If I had been told, "Ahri, the mage, is doing too much damage in the late game to people other than the one she is assassinating," then I would've addressed that contention instead. I had made my point about this clear multiple times and I was not responded to until I made these graphs; neither were the other players at the time this thread was posted.

In regards to the extraneous numbers, I only posted those points to increase graph readability. It's obnoxious to have to search for a single point on level 18 for full build Ahri. In hindsight, maybe that is misleading. If I were to change something, it would be to change the initial portion of part of the graphs to dotted lines. But regardless, the graphs show you the general trend and I don't think that you can really contend that they are wrong.

I did not show the "worst possible situation". In fact, in my eyes, I showed the best possible situation. This is because you don't care about the ambient damage on her ultimate while I do. And as I said before, this is a point of miscommunication- we did not understand the direction Riot is taking Ahri. And I know you've said you wanted to reduce free damage on R. But the context that this has always been said is in the terms of "she instagibs someone. Her assassin playstyle is a problem."

As a side note, I just want to say that I would appreciate it if you don't take the all-caps sarcastic quote kind of deal. It's really disrespectful to a person who only made these graphs because he cares. I have not been deliberately idiotic or misleading, so I would prefer if we could speak respectfully.

tl;dr - Many of the community want Ahri's single target burst to go down. But many of us who want to preserve her mage style do not want to lose the ambient damage that makes this possible, and at the time this thread was made, we were unheard. Nobody likes to be ignored. And the fact that I can at least have this discussion with you is proof of this thread's worth. Were we overreacting to the Ahri changes? Probably. But there is a rhyme and reason to everything. The initial mana nerf, W targeted nerf, R duration nerf, and lack of Q true damage amplification all served to add bias to our fears. In this respect, our points of contention are always biased and I'm happy to discuss exactly why we are. But I think Riot also needs to take a measure of responsibility that caused this situation in the first place.
UPDATE 11: The questions we want answered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEGITIVITY View Post
After the proposed true damage amplification change, the 2 Rotation Damage Change shows an increase in sustained damage in the mid game and a decrease in the late game with a landed charm. What we are trying to ask you is:

1. Why are the changes targeting late game Ahri's sustained damage?
2. Why is the ambient damage going down but the single target is going up (in most cases)?
3. Do you support or condemn mage Ahri along with assassin Ahri?


These are the questions that we desperately want answers to and started this thread. As I mentioned in the update, after the true damage amplification, the issue is a a lot better now. We can see that sustained damage doesn't immediately just drop dead to the ground anymore. As I have said, I am not against nerfing Spirit Rush. What I dislike is how poorly it scales compared to the live version. This is why I have been pushing for a higher AP ratio and created these graphs.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Liandry's damage.jpg (114.1 KB, 621 views)
File Type: jpg Lich Bane.jpg (40.9 KB, 458 views)
File Type: jpg True Damage Amplification.jpg (73.3 KB, 517 views)

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wapster

Senior Member

10-11-2013

riot cant balance for ****

this is absolutely disgusting


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Strident

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Bump.


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Fiora Mid GG Alt

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Are you applying DFG after E?


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Rakazul

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Riot balance is sh*t


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Strident

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValoryGirl View Post
Are you applying DFG after E?
If you do math, you will find that at level 1 E, a target needs more than 2400 HP for DFG to be more effective second. At level 5 E, a target needs more than 7200 HP for DFG to be worthwhile second. So I applied it first.

EDIT: I found an error in this concept. In fact, it's usually better to apply DFG second. However, the damage difference is roughly + or - 10-20. It's not too significant, but still an error on my part. At higher AP levels however, charm first is better, so the charm first is simpler.


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RadiantWings

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-11-2013

So she does comparatively less damage with DFG to her previous self?

Funny how people were talking about that synergy saving her.


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memow555

Senior Member

10-11-2013

This is very good, now fizz and kassadin need an execution and the game will be enjoyable to play again


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Strident

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantWings View Post
So she does comparatively less damage with DFG to her previous self?

Funny how people were talking about that synergy saving her.
According to this math, she only does more damage with DFG and 2 Doran's if that is all she has at level 16-18.

Additional AP makes it worse.


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RadiantWings

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Senior Member

10-11-2013

You know, I really hope Annie makes a comeback mid and makes people feel the terror of REAL "free damage" and instant gibs. We'd get our skillshot based champions back in no time at all.