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Sivir Feedback/Bugs Thread!

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Kidaris

Recruiter

10-22-2013

I love this new Sivir, her new W gives her the old feel of what it was with boomerangs going everywhere, its awesome. Everything feels good with her now


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Kevin Hawke

Member

10-22-2013

After a quick test of Sivir, I find that I'm relatively happy with the changes to her.

Her visual remake is very well-done and achieves the goal of making Sivir feel like an experienced mercenary leader. She feels much more deadly and mature compared to Live, where she feels almost comical in her nature.

As for her skillset, the changes to her spell shield are very nice; the fact that it no longer costs mana more available for use. The long cooldown has always felt to me like it was enough of a punishment to miss without the added loss of a notable chunk of mana. Her ult brings a great amount of utility on a relatively low cooldown and it feels incredibly satisfying to use. A super Shurelyia's on an ADC is a very fun thing.

My one complaint is that her single-target DPS feels more lacking than it does on Live for some reason or another. In lane, hitting a double Q alleviates this, but her damage is much more spread out when it comes to teamfights. She does have great waveclear, though, and she certainly still pushes lanes like a monster.


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SlVIR

Senior Member

10-22-2013

weak laner nerfed
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AszHsYTIJ1TgdHVSdmNxR3lQSnpuSHFRbDE2OThXVlE&gid=0

A. Total Base attack speed nerf

Live 18 : 1.02
-0.658 (+3.28%)

PBE 18 : .83
- 0.658 (+1.7%)

Unclear As to why she received such an enormous base stat nerf.

B. Total Number of attacks /10% increased cdr on W ( level 18)

Live Version : Over 6 seconds : Rank 5 W : 9.5 Attacks

PBE Version : Over 7 Seconds : Rank 5 W: 7.1 Attacks

Even with the massive attack speed speed steroid on W she still does less attacks over greater amount of time.

C. W change over all - This is just an opinion!
Pro's
- Laning phase easier
- Wave clearing Easier
- Ability to harass easier.
- Average AOE capability over long periods of time

Con's
- Greatly Reduced Trading power
- Moderately Reduced single target damage
- Passively pushes the lane in exchange for wave clear and harass.

D. Main nerf list
- Single target DPS Greatly Nerfed.
- Base stats moderately nerfed.
- Aggressive laning phase nerf


E. Main Buff list
- Disengage and Engage almost guaranteed with new ulti.
- AOE moderately buffed
- Mana costs moderately buffed
- passive farm lane buffed



TL; DR Either fill the rest of her power budget or buff her range.


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103percent

Senior Member

10-22-2013

I don't have the PBE client, but I do have hours and hours of experience with Sivir. Here's where I think you should be focusing on her mechanic wise: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3946579&page=1, http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=42407313


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Zeniha

Junior Member

10-22-2013

I love the Sivir rework as a whole except for her ultimate. The movement speed helps but for a marksman with only 500 range, the attack speed it used to have was needed. Now whether or not it should go to allies too is another story, but she just still feels slightly underwhelming with her dueling potential. Other than that, I love her.


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Liosrakia88

Recruiter

10-23-2013

Quote:
Luscious Lenny:
weak laner nerfed
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AszHsYTIJ1TgdHVSdmNxR3lQSnpuSHFRbDE2OThXVlE&gid=0
TL; DR Either fill the rest of her power budget or buff her range.


Lenny I love that you're using the graph! I would normally ask for credit, but it's not a big deal. I simply added my username next to it...plus, now if there are any mistakes everyone knows who to blame
To continue this argument (in a fashion):
TLDR; W has always been an extension of Sivir's auto-attacks that changed form throughout the game. Regardless of the current ASPD nerf with the W/R values, the new W does not fulfill the purposes old Sivir's W did. If this is the intention, there should be more power in other places on her budget as she now lacks her iconic early game/pre-6 mini-nuke to DPS transitions.
_____
Reasoning:
Sivir's kit (as I view it now):

Q:
With its high mana cost, slow projectile speed (1350), large damage reduction through minions (20%), and wide projectile, Sivir's Q is an fairly unreliable poking method that does not make up for her 500 range, but rather compliments it. Despite its unreliability as a poking method, it can be deadly when used by a skilled player in lane, and its high single target nuke damage makes it an exceptional early game "in-fight" ability. Q's ability to proc Sivir's passive allows her to catch fleeing enemies (or even make her own escape) by renewing her passive with a well placed Q.
It also has quick minion clearing capabilities which can wreak havoc on lanes.
Although Q can continue scaling into the mid game, without early access to high AD items, this ability will quickly fall off.
Sivir's Q is a fairly straightforward ability with a very high skill ceiling.

W:
With bonus damage, auto-attack reset, and 100% AD scaling, the W plays an essential (and often hidden) role in (live) Sivir's kit. W is somewhat unique in that it scales and changes purpose throughout the game.
Early game, W takes the form of an mini-nuke. The W's burst is often surprising, fight changing, and, although quite simple to use, is generally very rewarding (bouncer kills anyone?)
Although W retains much of its "mini-nuke" potential, W begins to change forms through the mid to late game, becoming a constant part of Sivir's DPS--itemization (crtis and sheen procs) having much to do with this, as the AA reset becomes less powerful as the game goes on. If you'd ever like to test the importance of Sivir's W, try playing without it.
Sivir's W is merely an extension of her auto-attacks. Although I don't classify her as an AD Caster, without the current "W" rendition acting as an AA enhancement, she would have very little DPS.
W, throughout all stages of the game, remains an extremely powerful tool for clearing minon waves. For team fights, many individuals will argue that Sivr's AoE damageis rubbish. A large part of this is due to the "hidden" nature of the damage. In actuality, 295 (+ 369% AD) spread out of targets is still quite a lot of damage.

E:
Sivir's E has an extremely high skill ceiling in use-- when used correctly, it can be an very useful baiting tool. It can also be used to open of aggressive opportunities for Sivir, such as rushing in ready to block a spell that the enemy is relying on-- such as thresh hook, or any number of burst nukes (Annie, Gragas, Zed). It's also an iconic ability and is very integral to the character.
Many of it's odd anti-patterns (using mana to gain mana) have been fixed with the new rendition, the largest question now being: Should I spell shield now to gain mana from this small ability, or should I wait for the spell that might kill me?

E is primarily defensive in nature with some focus on in-lane sustain, its nature leaving very little in the way of interaction with the rest of Sivir's kit.
Comparatively, Nocturne's spell shield, although it can be used defensively, is definitely an aggressively oriented spell shield, and the way its success, passive, and duration (1.5 seconds) is setup we can definitely see this. Any changes to E should reflect its basic defensive nature.

R:
Like the W, Sivir's R is very "hidden." Although often situational, a few tweaks to a team comp turns Sivir's ultimate into an very, very deadly force. It's useful for in-fight maneuverability, eating up towers, securing objectives like Dragon or Baron. It also gives an great deal of potential to an champion with only 500 range. The biggest problem with the current rendition of the R is that it falls under an "anti-pattern" that has been mostly eliminated from the game-- "power without game play" --in other words, auras. Because of the potential it gives the team, it basically locks up the rest of her power budget for anything base around Sivir.
______
Expanded Point (W)
Current W does AoE and provides some amount of consistent DPS, especially with the ultimate... as long as the numbers are tweaked, because, as of right now, there was no actual added DPS compard to live.
However, one thing it definitely does not do is give that early burst potential, eliminating the aggressive play we see pre level 6. The new W hits some points, but misses out on the early game--which is extremely significant. With some number changes, its mid game would be awesome, but without some thought process or some additional elements-- Q/W combos, 'targets affected by W' effect, bonus damage it doesn't fufill the "W enhancing Sivir's AA and kit throughout the game" vibe as well as it (probably) should be.

Off-Topic Q Ideas:
Q is exactly the same! But as long as we're doing a relaunch, I feel some basic QoL to normalize its scaling-- (CD/mana/AD) would be a great start-- and possibly all that would be needed. I have some numbers written up but I haven't done the math for mana/CD budget scales so it's probably WAYY off. Just wanted to throw this out here.
CD: 13/12/11/10/9
Mana: 70/75/80/85/90
100% AD scaling
20/55/90/125/160 base damage
10% projectile speed increase (1350-->1485)
Damage reduction reduced to 15% (from 20%); defined as "per additional target" for champions. Damage floor could be dropped to 35%.

Per additional target (champions): Minon damage is calculated as normal for both return and outgoing flights. Champion damage is calculated as normal for outgoing flight. On return flight, champion damage equals the same percentage as the last target hit on the outgoing blade, unless additional targets that were not in the outgoing flight path move into the return flight path, in which case damage is reduced as normal per additional target.
The main goal was to change the "perfect" strike from an 180% damage to 200%, rewarding an double strike a great deal more. It also retains fairly decent damage to multiple champions without being excessively easy; firing through a crowd of minions will still drastically reduce your damage output.

EX1:
Outgoing: Minon 1 takes 100% damage, champion 1 takes 85% damage.
Return: Champion 1 takes 85% damage, minion 1 takes 55% damage.
EX2:
Outgoing: Champion 1 takes 100% damage, minion 1 (85%), champion 2 (70%), minon 2 (55%)
Return: Minon 2 (40%), champion 2 (70%), minon 1 (40 or 35%), minon 4 (40/35%), champion one (55%).
____
[Level one with +12 AD runes (no masteries, Doran's):
New:[51.9+12+20+10]*1.0 = 93.9. Perfect hit [51.9+12+20+10]*2.0 = 187.8
Live: 0+13.2 = [60+ 13.2+11]*1.0 = 84.2. Perfect hit [60+13.2+11]1.8 damage = 151.56
+36.14 difference
_____
Level six (3 ranks in boomerang) with +12 AD runes (no masteries, Vamp +Doran's]:
New: [90+12+66.4+10+10]*1.0 =188.4 Perfect Hit: [90+12+66.410+10]*12.0 = 376.8
Live: [150+13.2+11+11]*1.0 = 185.2 Perfect Hit: [150+13.2+11+11]*1.8 =333.36
+43.44 difference
____
Level 18: +12 AD runes, BT, LW, Triforce (no masteries):
New: [160+12+101.2+100+40+30]*1.0 = 443.2 Perfect Hit:[160+12+101.2+100+40+30]*2.0 = 886.4
Original: [240+13.2+110+44+33]*1.0 = 440.2 Perfect Hit: [240+13.2+110+44+33]*1.8 = 792.36
+94.04 difference
Base damage may need to be reduced. [goal: Live single > new single, live double < new double]
____
Q Interactions with the rest of her abilities (including the ultimate) could be another step, but the goal would be to keep most of the the pre leve-6 as it currently is. Changes giving more "purpose" in the mid-late game (as opposed to adding more damage output) makes a great deal of sense to me. Q could potentially act as a tertiary resource system when combined with other abilities.
(Generic Examples: Q/double hit increases AA damage to that target, Q/double hit increases W ASPD or damage, Q/double hit slows/bleeds/etc, Q/double hit shreds armor)

Other Thoughts:
I actually enjoy the new E and R. New E should remain defensive/sustain oriented, so any additions to it will have to be very slight or "heart seeker strike" type passives. An attack speed buff, for instance, makes little sense.
The new R is awesome to move around with, but as I've said the new numbers are just...awful. More interaction between R and other abilities could be interesting, but it would be difficult to maintain the power budget and the scaling between ultimate levels--not to mention sticking to the "core" of the champion.


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Fikule

Member

10-25-2013

---BUG---

Sivir's Q is not preventing damage from Corkie's Ultimate. The shield is popped, but the damage is still taken.

---BUG---


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Fikule

Member

10-25-2013

Also, I don't get the comment on her Ricochet needing early ranks.

You can get Boomerang until level 6 with only a single point in Ricochet and it is just as good for single target DPS as long as you are attacking your main target.

Sure, for harassing someone it isn't as great at a lower rank. but the initial damage doesn't change. Ironically adding base damage to this ability would make the situation worse.

If any abilities should help her early game, make it boomerang and spell shield. Make it a choice.

Something like:

Boomerang: Adds 5/10/15/20/25 additional damage to Sivir's Richochet hits. (3 hits = 75 damage at rank 5)
Spell Shield: Ricochet restores 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1% of Sivir's missing health per target hit. (18% of missing health at rank 5 if it hits 18 total targets)