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Sivir relaunch heads to PBE

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M0b1us

Senior Member

10-11-2013

I have 2 questions and two ideas/suggestions.

First, the questions.

Is W still an auto attack reset?

The hair on her base skin looks like a 1970s-1980s style. It reminds me of Flo if she grew her hair longer. Was this intended? I would think for someone from Shurima would prefer a thinner hair style rather than so large and thick. Enough hair to block some of the sun but not thick enough to slow down heat from escaping.

The first idea is to make her passive partially proc on minions and monsters. If she gains 50 MS from hitting champs, let her gain 20-25 from monsters. Just enough so that she can use the minions to reach better positioning before harassing/engaging.

What do you think of the idea of making Q start to return to Sivir prematurely? Sivir throws out her Q, then she can activate it again to make it return to her before it reaches max range. This would help her dueling power since she has the possibility to minimize the damage reduction on it.
However, this might force the CD to start after the blade returns instead of on cast. If that's the case, then reduce the CD by the travel time to avoid this problem.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

10-11-2013

[please delete]


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Sjafi

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
What do you think of the idea of making Q start to return to Sivir prematurely? Sivir throws out her Q, then she can activate it again to make it return to her before it reaches max range. This would help her dueling power since she has the possibility to minimize the damage reduction on it.
However, this might force the CD to start after the blade returns instead of on cast. If that's the case, then reduce the CD by the travel time to avoid this problem.


Every time I play Sivir I wish that this was an option for her Q. I'd love to see it, but I think it would give her too much power.


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KHDragonn

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Her Q is global on purple side (the sound), just like when sad robot amumu came out. Its also really loud when your an enemy against her.


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Alcibion

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Statikk:
Great feedback, I'll talk with the team and investigate what we can do here.

To be fair it's always been her problem: even on live Sivir gets outpushed by champions like Caitlyn and Varus because while she may nule a bit more on a single QW cast, she'll run oom way before them and she's toasted once she does because she can't keep up with their autoattack range (she'll get harassed if she tries to match their pushing, even by just the support).

The spellshield doesn't help regarding this because even if it works, it doesn't give you a cast's worth of mana and if you keep doing it on cd (to have it every wave) then it'll be easy to bait you out before a trade or gank.

Another thing is that due to her range, she can't auto harass without committing, so she has to rely on Q and bounces for this, which eats into her mana pool and pushing ability (you won't push the wave while you're casting at a smart opponent who doesn't stand in it). Her passive is supposed to let her sneak in an auto (or Q, since the change) to activate a MS buff and run at her opponent, kinda like Vayne, however it's harder to do (Vayne's is truly passive and her ult's longer duration + tumble help with sticking to targets, while having a higher single-target dps and a potential cc means she kills faster (unless low-health target bursted) and thus doesn't have to chase as far) and it's also kind of conflicting with her pushing paradigm:
either you can't sustain their pushing and you end up harassed under your tower because of your bad range, or you push faster than them and if they force you to do so (for example by pushing themselves so you start countering, and they stop immediatly to make push toward them) then they're too close to their tower for you to be able to chase for extended trades, and your short range and lack of cc doesn't let you zone as well as Varus, Jinx or Cait for example.



TL;DR: there's nothing new about these issues, and sadly the current set of changes doesn't address them well enough (if at all).
The desire for a CDR-oriented build also feels displaced as the marksmen currently lack decent CDR itemisation options for an AD-oriented build (they want CDR, AD and ArPen, so ghostblade is far from optimal and the AoE niche for CDR-Sivir reduces the appeal of BC since it's so hard to maintain stacks on multiple targets (need either to save Q for use between the first 2 W, or 40% CDR and some RNG on the bounces); Gauntlet's CDR is weak and it doesn't give anything else but Spellblade which isn't much for its cost; Zephyr and boots are decent; Zeke's a joke for any carry position because of its abysmal slot-efficiency in terms of offensive stats while not providing any "true" defense).
As much as you can make them like CDR (Lucian, Varus sure do, Graves' E scales better with CDR than AS, etc.), they don't really have the items to use it. Urgot is a special case because his abilities are already spammable without CDR and his powercurve is very different.


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Auryiel

Member

10-11-2013

What kind of AD and CDR build could Sivir ever hope to build to match another carry in terms of damage?

Zephyr, Black Cleaver, Ionian Boots of Lucidity?

lol... Yeah good luck justifying your presence on the team.

I mean, fine if you want her to have a different build path, but your current itemization doesn't support that at all.


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BrilliantRebirth

Junior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Statikk:
Going to answer a bunch of questions / concerns being raised here. Sorry that I'm not exactly quoting:

1) Her low Attack Range is why she is not widely played
Although I can agree with this statement, I don't think it should automatically lead us to the conclusion that we MUST increase her Attack Range. Sivir I believe will always fill a niche role in the game, but that's okay as long as players who learn and master Sivir are actually powerful contributors to their team and that she is an enjoyable experience to play.

2) Removal of team-wide Attack Speed boost
From a design perspective, we decided that a 15-30% Attack Speed boost was one of the most unsatisfying ways we could deliver power through Sivir's kit. Although it did provide a somewhat strategic niche, we felt that the mobility part of her ult was always what was more closely associated with Sivir's identity, so we amped that up instead.

At the end of the day, we believe it provides more room to buff cool things about her kit. I do have a fear that she might be currently undertuned due to us having a couple of really good Sivir players internally that have done really well on a consistent basis. That's okay though guys, that's the reason for PBE, we can tune what we need to before she hits the Live servers.

3) Her ult is just a glorified Shurelia's
In a way, yes you can say that, but it's also important to take into context what she brings to the table relative to her competition. As far as I know, other marksmen don't have access to Shurelia's especially at level 6. Her ult may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I think that's okay. It's more important that the entire package is something Sivir players can identify with and enjoy.

4) Reduction of her base Attack Speed / Attack Speed per level
This was done for 2 reasons.

1. As a balancing factor due to how much power I wanted to put into the Passive Attack Speed bonus on Ricochet from On The Hunt. If Sivir isn't able to compete with other marksmen, then I would like to investigate buffing the Ricochet Attack Speed bonus (say 50/75/100% rather than the current 40/60/80%) instead of giving her Attack Speed the old boring way.

2. By making the Ricochet Attack Speed bonus important to her power, this increases the viability of Cooldown Reduction as a good stat on Sivir. CDR Sivir is a super fun build that I would love to see as an effective alternative to the generic marksmen builds that we traditionally see.

Once again, there's still tons of tuning we can do here, so feel free to try her out and give feedback. Thanks guys and gals!


Hi, thanks for replying to my concern regarding the Attack Speed of Sivir. While it is cool that you want to implement a CDR build for Sivir to have a good Attack Speed bonus, setting it into her as her only build choice is not a good idea in my opinion. As I stated in my post, even with Berserker's, Phantom Dancer, and Blade, I barely hit 1.4 Attack Speed. Without good attack speed, she just can't compete with any other ranged AD. Plus, her overall kit doesn't scream skill-spam really, as the abilities just fall off late game. The only two ranged AD I consider CDR builds worthwhile are Ezreal and Lucian, due to their Mystic Shot and Lightslinger, respectively.

There's another way to compensate for Attack Speed, which is just making Ricochet have a low enough cooldown to constantly use, but that would require Ricochet to regain bonus damage because as it is now, it is just an auto-attack reset that pushes / does miniscule AoE in team fights. The ultimate is fine, and having a "free" Shurelya's can be game-breaking, but it is definitely underwhelming as an ultimate, since it doesn't do anything "huge" on its own.


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Jace77

Senior Member

10-11-2013

removal of as on ult? could minions at least keep that? was a great way to clear out a tower. push opponents out of lane pop ult and take tower with super fast minions


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Stez007

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
exec3:
Because the League made no logical sense and severely restricted the stories Riot could tell in this world. "Sup, we're some secretish super power that's more powerful than the other super powers (Demacia, Noxus) and can dictate how entire wars go with a single match of little consequence." The League was a lore explanation for the games we players play, it was a cute explanation at the time when Riot and the game was still young but as Riot went serious mode with their IP they realized just how much the League was holding them back and fundamentally how little sense it makes and how illogical it was as a concept. It was a very good day the day it became clear they were moving away from the League for me, it was the rigth decision and long overdue. Though I am curious as to what exactly has happened to the League because it doesn't seem to have been retconned.


Then what the hell is the explanation for all these Champions being in the same place at the same time and fighting each other in gladiatorial combat?

Oh, wait, there is none. How is that more logical than the League?


Changing your story because "it doesn't make logical sense" is never, ever, ever a good idea. Plenty of things in fiction and real life don't make logical sense but they exist anyway, and that's enough. May as well just scrap the entire concept, the champions, the Fields of Justice and everything else and write an entirely new story instead of just retconning out the main connecting point of your original story.

I can't comprehend why people think this story (and the other ones that move away from the League) is actually
better from a lore standpoint; it's not even the same lore!

There's two universes here. In one universe there's a League of Legends. It's in this universe that we, the players, are Summoners binding powerful champions to our will to fight in gladiatorial combat. This is the universe that makes sense. So what if the Summoners of the Institute are more powerful than the warring nations? There are hundreds upon hundreds of ways to explain that, or they could just leave it unexplained.

Instead, they chose to create a different universe. In this universe, there are a lot of really cool and really powerful people. These people fight each other in very specific matches with very specific rules. Who set up these rules? No one in particular. Who got all these people together? Nobody, it just kind of happened. What are the players' parts in all this? Um...

Tell me which of the two universes you think is better. Personally I feel the first sounds like it has an actual story, while the second sounds more like Marvel vs Capcom.

Wait, no, Marvel vs Capcom has a story behind it. This is just fan-fiction. Bad fan-fiction.


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Kagami

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Statikk:
4) Reduction of her base Attack Speed / Attack Speed per level
This was done for 2 reasons.

1. As a balancing factor due to how much power I wanted to put into the Passive Attack Speed bonus on Ricochet from On The Hunt. If Sivir isn't able to compete with other marksmen, then I would like to investigate buffing the Ricochet Attack Speed bonus (say 50/75/100% rather than the current 40/60/80%) instead of giving her Attack Speed the old boring way.

2. By making the Ricochet Attack Speed bonus important to her power, this increases the viability of Cooldown Reduction as a good stat on Sivir. CDR Sivir is a super fun build that I would love to see as an effective alternative to the generic marksmen builds that we traditionally see.

Once again, there's still tons of tuning we can do here, so feel free to try her out and give feedback. Thanks guys and gals!


Without the base AS existing at a decent level, Sivir will be terribly weak because it gives her less scaling with AS items and she doesn't have long range to benefit or anything like Caityn and nor mobility and caster range like Corki or Ezreal, so I believe Sivir needs something for her endgame power since she has low range and no escape or low CD repositioning tool. And give her decent base AS means she'll at least scale with items well.