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Sivir relaunch heads to PBE

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Eyrgos

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Statikk:
Sivir has access to several tools that other marksmen don't. Top-of-the-line wave clearing, a Spell Shield, and team-wide mobility utility. We chose to emphasize those strengths rather than homogenizing and making her more similar to other marksmen.


She has less range than Quinn without a Vault & less burst... she has less range than Jinx with practically less AoE prowess & 0 CC... I feel like she needs better steroids or a range-increase somehow (like +50 range while W is active).


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FluffyPinkCloud

Junior Member

10-11-2013

Did Ricochet retain its flat damage bonus and is its damage drop off per target the same as before?


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Neo Aragorn

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
BrilliantRebirth:
A few things I noticed.

Her base attack speed got reduced to garbage tier. Her attack speed per level is also atrociously low. She didn't feel particularly strong when I played her, even with 6 items (IE + PD + LW + BT + BotRK + Berserker's) and against bots. The range issue is pretty apparent with 500 (I had a hard time chasing even with the passive). The ult definitely helps in chasing/running, but it shouldn't be relied on.

New Ricochet is fine, but feels a bit weaker than the old one due to having no bonus damage to the initial hit.

New Spell Shield is pretty good and got rid of the problems of it costing mana. As for the ult, I don't like tying the Attack Speed to Ricochet only. The adjusted movespeed isn't too bad, but might be a bit too strong.

This could be due to the fact that masteries are bugged, but I definitely felt a lot weaker compared to other ranged ADs.

I agree with all those points. Her range desperately needs to be changed to 550.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Statikk:

...

Sivir has access to several tools that other marksmen don't. Top-of-the-line wave clearing, a Spell Shield, and team-wide mobility utility. We chose to emphasize those strengths rather than homogenizing and making her more similar to other marksmen.


I disagree with the 'Top-of-the-line wave clearing'.
Her Q doesn't clear too well and still costs some mana.
W is decent, but due to the actually pretty long CD and not too high AOE dmg she still needs some time.

I would say that Graves, Trist, Varus and some others have not only similar, but better wave clear.
I tried to push as fast as possible with her, and the speed was not very impressive with only spamming a maxed W on CD.
The Q spam to clear worked better but costs way too much mana.

In terms of wave clear, her W is only a bit stronger than Jinx's Fishbones.
I had cases where Sivir did hit nearly all minions, but there are often cases where she will only hit 2-3 cause they spread out too far.
Jinx can mostly hit 2-3 but also 4-6 in certain cases.

20 mana per shot for a 2 shot 220% AOE AA over high range vs 40 mana for 150% AD with 3 AA and 300% to the main target.

In the current form i prefer Fishbones and, if needed, the E base dmg.
Sivirs Q + W combo can't keep up with that.


I even feel like Cait's Q + AA is safer and faster than sivirs wave clear and costs less mana.



I don't see a 550 AA range on Sivir. Probably not even 525. The 500 can work.
But to make that possible, she needs to be able to deal the dmg of a late game ADC, and without real steroids, she doesn't do that. Cait like dmg over 500 range is not really awesome. No traps and no escape skill. The spell shield is ok and the new ult change will help her, but she is still and easy target if she gets that close.


I wrote that already in the EU thread:
1. Reduce the W CD by 1 sec to 9-5 sec.
2. Let the R passive AS bonus stick longer. Maybe for the W and 2 sec after that or put it into the active. 40/60/80% AS for the 6 sec. That is a good steroid and the duration is not too long and it is still and ult.
These are only 2 suggestions you could test. When you change 1. the 2 sec extra AS after W may be over the top and 1 sec could be enough.
3. Her missile speed is a bit low.
4. Her AA sometimes does no dmg when you reset it with W while the projectile is already on the way to the enemy.



I have still some time left so I can also talk about the team wide MS boost.
A great thing and i like it. But it is not as strong as a well aimed Ashe Arrow.
Running fast is great to escape, but slowing is better when chasing.
The lower CD, higher speed and the removed cast time will make pretty awesome now for the team, but it is not like other ADCs wouldn't have great utility ults like Varus, Ashe. And Varus also has great poke and wave clear and also burst and a 575 range together with healing reduction and a slow.

I like that you prioritize her uniqueness, but pls make them good. Improve her wave clear for real if you want her to do that, just like you did with her ult. Don't let it stand on par with other decent wave clear ADCs.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

10-11-2013

Going to answer a bunch of questions / concerns being raised here. Sorry that I'm not exactly quoting:

1) Her low Attack Range is why she is not widely played
Although I can agree with this statement, I don't think it should automatically lead us to the conclusion that we MUST increase her Attack Range. Sivir I believe will always fill a niche role in the game, but that's okay as long as players who learn and master Sivir are actually powerful contributors to their team and that she is an enjoyable experience to play.

2) Removal of team-wide Attack Speed boost
From a design perspective, we decided that a 15-30% Attack Speed boost was one of the most unsatisfying ways we could deliver power through Sivir's kit. Although it did provide a somewhat strategic niche, we felt that the mobility part of her ult was always what was more closely associated with Sivir's identity, so we amped that up instead.

At the end of the day, we believe it provides more room to buff cool things about her kit. I do have a fear that she might be currently undertuned due to us having a couple of really good Sivir players internally that have done really well on a consistent basis. That's okay though guys, that's the reason for PBE, we can tune what we need to before she hits the Live servers.

3) Her ult is just a glorified Shurelia's
In a way, yes you can say that, but it's also important to take into context what she brings to the table relative to her competition. As far as I know, other marksmen don't have access to Shurelia's especially at level 6. Her ult may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I think that's okay. It's more important that the entire package is something Sivir players can identify with and enjoy.

4) Reduction of her base Attack Speed / Attack Speed per level
This was done for 2 reasons.

1. As a balancing factor due to how much power I wanted to put into the Passive Attack Speed bonus on Ricochet from On The Hunt. If Sivir isn't able to compete with other marksmen, then I would like to investigate buffing the Ricochet Attack Speed bonus (say 50/75/100% rather than the current 40/60/80%) instead of giving her Attack Speed the old boring way.

2. By making the Ricochet Attack Speed bonus important to her power, this increases the viability of Cooldown Reduction as a good stat on Sivir. CDR Sivir is a super fun build that I would love to see as an effective alternative to the generic marksmen builds that we traditionally see.

Once again, there's still tons of tuning we can do here, so feel free to try her out and give feedback. Thanks guys and gals!


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

10-11-2013

Quote:
Xyltin:
I disagree with the 'Top-of-the-line wave clearing'.
Her Q doesn't clear too well and still costs some mana.
W is decent, but due to the actually pretty long CD and not too high AOE dmg she still needs some time.

I would say that Graves, Trist, Varus and some others have not only similar, but better wave clear.
I tried to push as fast as possible with her, and the speed was not very impressive with only spamming a maxed W on CD.
The Q spam to clear worked better but costs way too much mana.

In terms of wave clear, her W is only a bit stronger than Jinx's Fishbones.
I had cases where Sivir did hit nearly all minions, but there are often cases where she will only hit 2-3 cause they spread out too far.
Jinx can mostly hit 2-3 but also 4-6 in certain cases.

20 mana per shot for a 2 shot 220% AOE AA over high range vs 40 mana for 150% AD with 3 AA and 300% to the main target.

In the current form i prefer Fishbones and, if needed, the E base dmg.
Sivirs Q + W combo can't keep up with that.


I even feel like Cait's Q + AA is safer and faster than sivirs wave clear and costs less mana.



I don't see a 550 AA range on Sivir. Probably not even 525. The 500 can work.
But to make that possible, she needs to be able to deal the dmg of a late game ADC, and without real steroids, she doesn't do that. Cait like dmg over 500 range is not really awesome. No traps and no escape skill. The spell shield is ok and the new ult change will help her, but she is still and easy target if she gets that close.


I wrote that already in the EU thread:
1. Reduce the W CD by 1 sec to 9-5 sec.
2. Let the R passive AS bonus stick longer. Maybe for the W and 2 sec after that or put it into the active. 40/60/80% AS for the 6 sec. That is a good steroid and the duration is not too long and it is still and ult.
These are only 2 suggestions you could test. When you change 1. the 2 sec extra AS after W may be over the top and 1 sec could be enough.
3. Her missile speed is a bit low.
4. Her AA sometimes does no dmg when you reset it with W while the projectile is already on the way to the enemy.


Great feedback, I'll talk with the team and investigate what we can do here.


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Izzabelle

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Congrats on the Sivir VU, it looks fantastic! Now that she's open for new skins...

Headhunter Sivir where?! Riot pls. Parrot pls?


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CrazedPorcupine

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Bandit Sivir's Hair clips through her Right Shoulder pad spikes!


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Elphrihaim

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Pizza Girl Sivir first though :V


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ToyBoats

Junior Member

10-11-2013

One thing that is kind of disappointing is that the boomerang in the pax sivir doesn't look that much like a controller any more. Please add the arrows back at the 4 points.