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Looking for Ziggs Q feedback

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Ikeeda

Junior Member

10-11-2013

I like this change. Ziggs isn't like other champs. Before a teamfight is engaged he plays like Ezreal, throwing out q's wherever you see a good shot. In lane he tries to take cheap shots by clipping minions with the first bounce. He can chase for a kill by bouncing bombs, kite with q's, and wave clear from a distance with bouncing bombs into grouped minions. The feeling from undershooting a bomb with the new system is not that bad and is quick to understand. The feeling from walking forward a step, losing your distance, and winding up in range of the enemy team is a far worse one and harder to understand (I overshot 50(?) units but I really want to get the max range out on the enemies, so do I become scared to play the champ to the fullest or do I risk dying because I haven't learned the range perfectly yet?).

Imagine playing Ezreal and you go to Q an enemy carry that pokes in front of an enemy Vi. You go for max range (mousing over the enemy to help you aim better), but you end up a bit over and you start walking forward instead of kiting. You get Vi ulted and cc'd into death. You don't fully understand how to prevent it happening again and it becomes frustating.

I think it would be easier to understand and less painful for some to adjust (even better ways take time to adjust) if there was some way to preview ranges for abilities while being able to issue new commands. Imagine Rengar leap range indicator but toggleable for each ability with a hotkey.


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TomatoTamago

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Meddler:
Hey all.

The current patch on the PBE has a change to Ziggs' Q targeting where, if the target location is out of range, he'll cast in that direction, rather than walking into range of that location to cast. Effectively this means Bouncing Bomb acts somewhat like a line skillshot. The intent here is to make it easier to throw Bouncing Bomb at max range, particularly in hectic fights when trying to stay as safe as possible while still putting out damage.

Feedback would be much appreciated on this change, particularly whether you found it overall harder or easier to use, particularly during the early laning phase and during late game sieges or teamfights. Would also be great to know if you were playing with Quickcast (smartcast) or regular cast.

Do it still bounces if i do this?


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Okay, I played a game of Ziggs on live, then one on PBE.

I can say that the Q change does kind of feel natural...but so does the Q on live. The more important things I noticed were a few moments where I threw the bomb a biiit short on PBE because I wasn't sure if I was throwing it at the max radius...

I believe this change is harmful to Ziggs's precision in bomb throwing. When an opponent is fleeing, you want to move forward and throw it behind them where you know the third bounce will hit them in ONE action (pressing Q), rather than right click to move forward THEN press Q.


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common source

Recruiter

10-11-2013

Quote:
Meddler:
Hey all.

The current patch on the PBE has a change to Ziggs' Q targeting where, if the target location is out of range, he'll cast in that direction, rather than walking into range of that location to cast. Effectively this means Bouncing Bomb acts somewhat like a line skillshot. The intent here is to make it easier to throw Bouncing Bomb at max range, particularly in hectic fights when trying to stay as safe as possible while still putting out damage.

Feedback would be much appreciated on this change, particularly whether you found it overall harder or easier to use, particularly during the early laning phase and during late game sieges or teamfights. Would also be great to know if you were playing with Quickcast (smartcast) or regular cast.


Thank you so much!

I haven't touched Ziggs in a while because forcing me to walk to the cast location was not what I wanted, more often than not.


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sn0wwarrior

Recruiter

10-11-2013

Ziggs is one of my core mid lane champs. I use smart cast with range indicators. While i think this may throw players off for a bit having to remember that i can click where i want him to throw when he gets to the range it will work out, and may make using his bounces to hit his true max range a bit easier


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Sternbery

Member

10-11-2013

I don't have access to PBE but I'll tell my experience on a similar case. I had a hard time getting used to Annie's Disintigrate after it was attached to her model. It was quite often that I would cast the spell only to learn that I was out of range.

By attaching the cone to her model you made it so that I have to click a lot more to aim it. I would just click where I want to aim and she would walk there. If I got out of position during that time i just click somewhere else to cancel. If they moved then recast the spell where the moved to. Now I have to get in close, check to make sure I'm still in range if not then get closer. If I get out of position then double right click behind me. That's a lot of clicking that was not there before. Which is fine if you're a high tier player, but I'm only silver V.

Now about Ziggs. I feel this change will hurt his early game harass. Since hitting minions causes the bomb to explode on the bounce and my laning opponent is often behind some minions I cast his Q to bounce over some minions to hit him. This requires some precise placement of his bomb which is something that gets harder when you set him to auto-max-cast. If I want to cast at max range I just cast slightly beyond the cast range.

That being said, I think there is a compromise to be had. How about instead of max range casting if you click outside of the range, you max cast if you click near the max range but not exactly on it, and walk into range if you click far outside the cast radius.


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Ki Striker

Junior Member

10-11-2013

just tested it and played better than ever. Keep this in!


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EnterTheDark

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Khristophoros:
I think it'll hurt his laning because precisely placed bombs on minions is key to poking the opponent. Basically it's like... the exact position where you threw the bomb is where the center of the explosion is as long as there is a unit within the impact range. So with very precise placement you can have it explode just on the edge of minions to hit a nearby champion.

I think it'll be harder to do that precisely because targeting slightly out of the cast range will no longer cause Ziggs to walk into range.

Exactly. Anyone who plays Ziggs even half consistently has learned to time placement for splash and farm, but with this new change, there is a huge deficit in his ability to farm, harass, and get the most out of his primary damage source.


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Nine Ravens

Senior Member

10-11-2013

I was able to test on the PBE, (using smartcast, no indicators) and while there are tradeoffs I think I like the new way. It feels much more fluid, and works better for situations where you need to throw the bomb immediately but not necessarily precisely to be effective. I feel this works for Ziggs since the effective range is beyond the max throw distance due to bounces, so it won't cause as many misses as say, Lux's Lucent Singularity. Another thing - this change may make it harder for enemies to juke bombs very near to the max range, since there is no telegraphing caused by Ziggs having to walk forward a few units before he casts.

I do have a few concerns. One concern would be that since it will always cast a bomb, more mana would be wasted with this casting system from misjudged casts, whereas under the current system the player can cancel the action during the movement if they see it was further than they wanted or the enemy moved too far to be hit. Since Ziggs is mana hungry, it might cause problems with mana management, especially for newer Ziggs players. Another concern is consistency within his kit. His other abilities are all similarly cast skillshots that use the move-within-range system, so it might become confusing to some players when one skillshot behaves one way, and his others behave differently. I definitely do not want the others to become cast-at-max range (especially minefield and ult), but I like the Bouncing Bomb change so it may be worth the inconsistency.

Quote:
CaptenAmazingMk2:
I remember this discussion coming up when you were looking at making the change for a post-death karthus. Someone also suggested doing the same thing for Lucent Singularity on Lux.

The case you're prescribing is one that helps in a teamfight while hurting laning, but what we're really doing is rewarding people for not learning their mechanics properly. I expect a ziggs player who doesn't know the range on his bombs to cast worse bombs than a ziggs who does, and not to get a lucky double kill because the bomb flew off and caught people on the last bounce.

The precision of the ability is important and i'd prefer to have ziggs walk to max range and throw than just chuck it out there.

You realize the current casting system is also rewarding people who don't have perfect mechanics? If someone casts beyond max range, the game takes over and automatically walks them to where they can throw the skillshot they wanted. Either system engages in a behavior to assist players who attempt to take an illegal action of casting a skillshot beyond its max range. The question is which one is better in most situations for the players who attempt such actions.


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CaptenAmazingMk2

Junior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Nine Ravens:
You realize the current casting system is also rewarding people who don't have perfect mechanics? If someone casts beyond max range, the game takes over and automatically walks them to where they can throw the skillshot they wanted. Either system engages in a behavior to assist players who attempt to take an illegal action of casting a skillshot beyond its max range. The question is which one is better in most situations for the players who attempt such actions.


That's an interesting perspective you offer! Digging further into it I still feel the current model punishes bad play more than the new one.

Why?

This is a game where an extra 1/4 or 1/2 of a second can mean everything in terms of how you contribute to a fight. If a champion is out of position they have to spend time walking to their location to send an attack in and this kind of factor affects the outcome of far more fights than we might realise at first.

How often have you won a fight and realised you were lucky champion X didn't manage to land ability Y, otherwise it could have been different? With this change we're turning a situation which separates the bad from the good into a free "hail mary pass" where they can just take a stab and who cares if it lands not because there was no thinking or strategy required on my part and no punishment if I got it wrong other than a lost fight which we were probably going to lose anyway.

Some people will find the change attractive but this doesn't mean it's good for the champ or the game. In fact they reversed the changes to Draven's Q leading because it (I'll paraphrase) "didn't offer high level players the chance to showcase their skill with the champion".

Ziggs may not get the same focus Draven did because he was very popular back then due to his stacking bleed passive, but again we are falling into some old traps with this change.

If someone can show me why it's broken I wouldn't be against fixing it but so far the analysis in terms of the new Q has been either:

1. Yay I've always wanted this - but with no explanation of why, or
2. Hmm I tried this out and at first it was tricky but it feels ok now
3. A few scattered mentions (and a developer acknowledgement) that it might hurt his laning

In terms of validating this as an idea, we need to know the designer's justification for it and get some regular players to pick it apart and really think about what it means for him.

The other thing I'd like to see is some root cause analysis. I don't know the champ in and out so this won't be complete, but I'll take a shot.

The developer wants to change Zigg's Q.
Why?
There is/must be a sense that the ability is not satisfying enough right now.
Why?
According to player complaints, bombs are often cast and the champion has to walk into range to cast them.
Why?
The nature and style of the champion as compared to how his abilities operate are lacking some manner of cogency.
Why?
Ziggs is pitched as a long range bombardier and his Q range is not meeting the natural criteria we'd expect from someone who lobs explosives out at mana cost.

So to me the solution is not to turn it into a non-pass-through line skill shot but instead to increase the cast range so that players feel natural when they release bombs but still retain the accuracy and skill elements involved.

The natural criticism of course is that the skill required is reduced if the range is increased (remember really old Ori? The opposite happened with her). This is true, and I'd suggest re-doing the numbers on the bomb slightly when you increase the range.

Now I ain't no rager - if the developer goes down this path I just won't play Ziggs and this is one of my favourite things about lol - there's a champ perfect for everybody. I am speaking up because I don't want to lower the pool of champions available to me because of (what seem like) mechanics changes that don't add any gameplay.

Thank you and sorry for the long post.