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Mid Zyra Nerf compensation

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Zahlfast

Junior Member

10-18-2013

CertainlyT, as a piece of anecdotal evidence about Zyra's underwhelming presence in the mid lane:

I love the spectate function on the home page of the LoL client, and I love that my favorite champion is so often represented in higher level play (diamond etc.). I used to always try and spectate Zyra games to improve my own silver-level play. Unfortunately, I was persistently disappointed because invariably these players took her bot lane support when I was trying to learn her mid. I have since learned not to bother clicking if the game has any other champion who could even conceivably go mid. I think I've manage to spectate one mid Zyra game in the past month or something. I don't bother watching LCS mid laner streams when they Solo Queue since the chance they pick her to play is infinitesimal.

Thus my continued interest/concern over her fate in the mid lane. I know as a player base we would appreciate hearing from you again.

Zahlfast


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Stunning

Senior Member

10-18-2013

... Bump for justice as a mid Zyra main since her release.

y u do dis T~T


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Amordys

Senior Member

10-20-2013

Buuummppppppp


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Ginga

Recruiter

10-20-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:


That being said, these changes were focused on improving her play pattern (as and against) overall. The base damages we reduced will hurt mid Zyra much less than duo lane Zyra. The seed usability improvements will help both mid and bot Zyra feel like they have greater control over their champion. All in all, I don't see 3.13 as hurting mid Zyra much.

No matter how often I read this part, it feels like such a cop-out.


Also, you don't know how much the base damage means to Zyra pre-6 or before she starts building more damage do you? What will happen to Zyra's who goes for Chalice first? What about the Liandries+Rylai's Zyra?


Can't you think about those Zyra players as well?


So how's Morello's planned rework to make her more plant-oriented going along?


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Gidoru

Senior Member

10-20-2013

Quote:
Ginga:
No matter how often I read this part, it feels like such a cop-out.


Also, you don't know how much the base damage means to Zyra pre-6 or before she starts building more damage do you? What will happen to Zyra's who goes for Chalice first? What about the Liandries+Rylai's Zyra?


Can't you think about those Zyra players as well?


At this point it seems as though they dont give a **** and will go through with these changes completely gutting Zyra making her not viable for the foreseeable future.


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nvmvoidrays

Senior Member

10-20-2013

Quote:
Jarvan Krislov:
The reason why Zyra isn't strong in mid is because she's too powerful in bot and has been nerfed as a result. It's simply a bad habit of enforcing the meta.


that's not the reason she's bad at mid lane.

she's bad at mid lane because of the popularity of mid lane assassins (ahri, fizz, zed, etc.) or mid laners with mobility (gragas). if she misses her root? gg, she's pretty much dead in a 1v1. compile that with the fact that in solo queue, giving up a kill or two to, say, fizz or zed can result it zyra just getting completely annihilated.

if you hold your root, it doesn't matter because they're right on-top of you. then, you have to use your ultimate.

basically, the current state of the game and mid lane in general is really ****ing ****ty for mid zyra... but because she's strong bottom lane, she's getting nerfed there, but, she isn't getting anything to compensate for that. then, by the time the game shifts enough for her to be good in mid lane, she'll be weak enough that she'll only be played as support.

in fact, i'd say reducing her base damages and increasing her ratios hurts mid zyra more then support zyra, simply because she won't have as much pressure to get her through the early game and to her ult. you can't always be first pick, so, you can't guarantee the ****ty match-ups for your lane are banned, etc.

plus, zyra isn't really a champion that benefits from rushing deathcap and stacking AP out the wazoo. i'd say she gets more benefit from getting utility items, ala rylais and lindarys then she does rushing deathcap... thus, the base nerfs hurt her even more.

basically, its just a cluster**** of problems that can't be band-aid fixed.


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Zahlfast

Junior Member

10-21-2013

Okay, once more with feeling:

Please, Riot think of some way to compensate so that Zyra doesn't become unviable mid lane. She's really my favorite and is basically the only champ I ever play mid. I've played her from Bronze III to Silver III so far, and I really want to keep going. I've gotten so much better at her as a champ and at the game in general. I would really rather not be forced to learn to play an Orianna or something. Thanks,

A huge fan of this game and this champ in particular


p.s. Suggestions for Zyra-like champs to learn mid one if/when the nerfs go through unmitigated?


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Ginga

Recruiter

10-21-2013

Quote:
nvmvoidrays:
that's not the reason she's bad at mid lane.

she's bad at mid lane because of the popularity of mid lane assassins (ahri, fizz, zed, etc.) or mid laners with mobility (gragas). if she misses her root? gg, she's pretty much dead in a 1v1. compile that with the fact that in solo queue, giving up a kill or two to, say, fizz or zed can result it zyra just getting completely annihilated.

if you hold your root, it doesn't matter because they're right on-top of you. then, you have to use your ultimate.

basically, the current state of the game and mid lane in general is really ****ing ****ty for mid zyra... but because she's strong bottom lane, she's getting nerfed there, but, she isn't getting anything to compensate for that. then, by the time the game shifts enough for her to be good in mid lane, she'll be weak enough that she'll only be played as support.

in fact, i'd say reducing her base damages and increasing her ratios hurts mid zyra more then support zyra, simply because she won't have as much pressure to get her through the early game and to her ult. you can't always be first pick, so, you can't guarantee the ****ty match-ups for your lane are banned, etc.

plus, zyra isn't really a champion that benefits from rushing deathcap and stacking AP out the wazoo. i'd say she gets more benefit from getting utility items, ala rylais and lindarys then she does rushing deathcap... thus, the base nerfs hurt her even more.

basically, its just a cluster**** of problems that can't be band-aid fixed.


Technically Zyra isn't ****ed by assassins nearly as hard as she gets ****ed by champions with heavy pokes. Her MS makes her more vulnerable than normal against skillshots, and her overall squishiness makes each hit really smarts.


Against assassins, she atleast has the pre-6 levels to attempt to shut them down or gain enough of an advantage early on to mitigate the assassin's power spikes. Of course, bull**** assassins like Zed or Ahri can't be shut down thanks to their wave clear and sustain on Ahri's part.



And yes. Nerfing her bases just to up her ratios can potentially homogenize Zyra and kill any variance in her builds. What if Zyra doesn't want to rush Deathcap huh?! What if you want to build Liandries+Rylai's?



PS - your automated censorship make posts sound FAR more aggressive than they actually are. I think you should take a look into that.


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10desires

Junior Member

10-21-2013

Hi, I am a diamond 1 player who has played hundreds of ranked games as Zyra mid and I have a question I hope a red can answer: If the nerfs are targeted towards toning down support Zyra's power specifically, what is the reasoning behind nerfing the Q range. No matter how I look at it, this nerf has minimal effect to support Zyra while significantly hurting mid Zyra. In duo lane as a support, the main purpose of Q is simply a tool for spawning ranged plants, and quickly falls off on damage in lane as it is generally maxed last. Even if a bot lane Zyra decided to max Q first, the base damage is not that high (and even if it is a problem, I believe you plan to reduce it next patch anyway) and they will pay dearly in CC ability with that low duration rank 1 snare. For AP mid Zyra however, Q is your bread and butter poke and trading tool. It makes it that much harder to land your Q without taking damage in return, and that much easier for the assassin mids that are so popular nowadays to close the gap to you.

I'm not sure if the flaw lies in my original premise of this nerf being targeted towards duo lane support zyra and this really was done with solo lane zyra specifically in mind, or in the logic of the balance team.

If a red could give me some insight into this change I would greatly appreciate it, as it hurts me to see this change done to my favorite plant goddess but if you could explain your reasoning behind it according to my post I would not be one to whine about it any further.


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Zahlfast

Junior Member

10-21-2013

(I posted this on the GD thread as well, but not sure if others follow both discussions so I'm posting it here too.)
----
Oh! Oh! I just had an idea. What if:

- You reverted the range nerf on her Q. (Because if you get to place a seed farther away the plant still won't attack unless you damage the enemy with the nuke part of Q. And as the previous poster notes, maintaining that distance vs champs with gap closers is so vital given how immobile and squishy you are.)

- Keep all the other nerfs (ult, cool down, damage).

- Make it so W stores 3 seeds, but you can only have a max of 3 seeds/plants at any time. Also increase the time to storage.

That way you get a more plant based Zyra and I could see her staying in mid. The only problem might be that this makes her support too overpowered. But you could tweak how long it takes to get a seed meaning each plant is more of a decision, you have to decide to scout with seeds or hold onto them for a 3 plant combo. It is a bigger impact if the enemy squashes it as a seed, etc. Maybe it's a graded timer so the first seed stores quickly, the second medium, the third you wait longer for?

Ooooh, I really like this.