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Mid Zyra Nerf compensation

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sinakan

Junior Member

10-11-2013

Currently the majority of people do not recognize zyra is a mid-liner.
Design is certainly the first time zyra mid liner was designed to think. However, the mid-nerf zyra supporters because people will start to use it. But here another nerf. When you do not use no zyra kind are you going to nerf? GB zyra not escape the weakness of slow movement speed. Moreover, health is weak. Zyra alone to deal with this point do not think i have a bunch. Therefore, we will not understand why nerf.
Zyra please please think again about the nerf


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Vsin

Senior Member

10-11-2013

HOLD IT!!!

Your decision is to nerf the BASE damage on Deadly Bloom in exchange for the AP ratio? All of my wat? I dunno about you guys, but when I play Support Zyra I max out Grasping Roots first, then usually max out Rampant Growth second, with Deadly Bloom coming dead last because it's a merely OK nuke and the CC duration ramp up on Grasping Roots is greater than a 100% increase.

Basically, you've actually nerfed AP Zyra harder than you've nerfed Support Zyra because guys like me will still be maxing Roots, but AP Zyras now have their early game trade damage fall through the floor unless they Rune for full AP (...which is downright suicidal).

Even if I'm an idiot and all the pros are going Deadly Bloom first for raw damage, I still have to ask the question as to why we're nerfing Zyra's damage instead of buffing up everybody else. SHOCK AND HORROR, A SUPPORT DEALS RELEVANT DAMAGE, NEEDS NERFS NAO. I saw that coming from a mile away, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to just bend over and take it. People wonder why the average person hates playing Support, yet many of those same people actively advocate for Support damage output nerfs.

I dunno, moreso than the Bruiser/Carry/AP triangle situation where Riot has been brutally inconsistent in distributing their favours, Supports have been consistently nerfed time and time and flipping time again, with the only buffs being reworks...that quickly get nerfed back down. Before long, we're going to see Annie and Fiddlesticks nerfed to hell because they're even remotely viable as Supports, then Syndra will slide in and get nerfed, and before long we'll have a pile of awful champions that only masochistic sods like me will pick.


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XSkylarcX

Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Vsin:
HOLD IT!!!

Your decision is to nerf the BASE damage on Deadly Bloom in exchange for the AP ratio? All of my wat? I dunno about you guys, but when I play Support Zyra I max out Grasping Roots first, then usually max out Rampant Growth second, with Deadly Bloom coming dead last because it's a merely OK nuke and the CC duration ramp up on Grasping Roots is greater than a 100% increase.

Basically, you've actually nerfed AP Zyra harder than you've nerfed Support Zyra because guys like me will still be maxing Roots, but AP Zyras now have their early game trade damage fall through the floor unless they Rune for full AP (...which is downright suicidal).

Even if I'm an idiot and all the pros are going Deadly Bloom first for raw damage, I still have to ask the question as to why we're nerfing Zyra's damage instead of buffing up everybody else. SHOCK AND HORROR, A SUPPORT DEALS RELEVANT DAMAGE, NEEDS NERFS NAO. I saw that coming from a mile away, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to just bend over and take it. People wonder why the average person hates playing Support, yet many of those same people actively advocate for Support damage output nerfs.

I dunno, moreso than the Bruiser/Carry/AP triangle situation where Riot has been brutally inconsistent in distributing their favours, Supports have been consistently nerfed time and time and flipping time again, with the only buffs being reworks...that quickly get nerfed back down. Before long, we're going to see Annie and Fiddlesticks nerfed to hell because they're even remotely viable as Supports, then Syndra will slide in and get nerfed, and before long we'll have a pile of awful champions that only masochistic sods like me will pick.



i agree fully!


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Avelys

Senior Member

10-11-2013

I give up on Riot's balance team. None of the changes they implement make any sense whatsoever.


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ScottyRawr

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Well, one thing that just bugs me is the CDR. 10% now? Everything gives 20% that she uses unless you buy a DFG. I just hate hate hate buying something that'll give me 30% CDR instead of 40% now LOL. Forced to buy DFG I guess. (;


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Gidoru

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Apparently CertianlyT thinks that mid lane Zyra is too strong and needs a nerf.

A champion who is never used in the highest levels of play as mid laner is overpowered and deserves to get her damage reduced, range reduced, knock up duration reduced and CDR removed.
But these 'usability' improvements that fix things no one has problems with balances it all out.

Quote:
CertainlyT:
I am not interested in "compensation," only in giving all Zyra players more opportunities to distinguish themselves, because I think Zyra is also too strong as a mid laner. That she is still highly successful in that slot in an assassin-filled meta-game (her natural counter) speaks for itself. The fact that LCS teams generally choose to run her bot lane doesn't make her mid lane case immune from balance considerations. If you enjoy Zyra enough to take advantage of the gains this patch provides, you'll still find great success in mid.



http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3937936


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RadiantWings

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Since assassin Ahri is the main problem that you guys are trying to fix, would it be possible to instead focus Ahri on her mage playstyle rather than trying to balance around her assassin playstyle? There's a thread on GD that graphs out her damage loss during a perfect play post pbe patch sans Lichbane.

I think that there are a couple of changes that need to be done as well:


Foxfire
-Needs to actually be an AoE spell if its penalized for it. This actually solves a lot of problems, such as the case where you will now always use Essence Theft on Orb of Deception. Now Ahri will use Foxfire for clumped enemies and Orb for spread out enemies. This also helps increase Ahri's teamfight damage.

-Make Foxfire a low cooldown/low base/high ratio spell similar to Orianna's Command: Attack or Evelynn's Hatespike. Ahri has to be pretty close to a target to get all of the Foxfires to target them and they can veer off onto other targets as well. This would also play more into a sustained damage mage which works with the changes you're making to Essence Theft.


Charm:
-Make Foxfire and Spirit Rush gain additional range towards and prioritize a Charmed champion over all other targets. This is a change that plays well into both Mage and Assassin Ahri. Mage Ahri can now finally use a third spell to harass while keeping in the backline. Assassin Ahri can now actually prioritize an enemy champion. Best of all, this is a reward only if she lands Charm, and because it's only additional range, it's not going to be anywhere near Urgot's level of harassment. If it prioritized charmed minions, that would potentially mean wasting Foxfire so the champion clause is prevent people from feeling like they shouldn't ever use Charm.
-Reduce the damage amp to compensate.


I think these two changes would pretty much solve Ahri's burst issue, make her better in a perfect play case, and allow Mage Ahri to thrive in an environment where everyone's picking assassin Ahri.


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Aerothal

Recruiter

10-12-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
Zyra's more than viable mid lane, although one who has greater matchup variance than our more commonly picked mids like Ahri. If Zyra doesn't feel strong there, that's a problem with her design and I'll take full blame.

That being said, these changes were focused on improving her play pattern (as and against) overall. The base damages we reduced will hurt mid Zyra much less than duo lane Zyra. The seed usability improvements will help both mid and bot Zyra feel like they have greater control over their champion. All in all, I don't see 3.13 as hurting mid Zyra much.

I am adamant in fighting against these "changes".
First of all, please start being honest and call them nerfs.

Now i read a lot about this topic because Zyra is by far my favorite champ.
There is no one else agreeing with you on the point that she is "more than viable" ore "too strong a midlaner". Both your statements.
Right now, in her current state she is only viable mid, if played by experienced Zyra players who know her in and out.
Even then she is borderline.
One mistake against an assassin and you are dead.
She has no escape, her movement speed is one of the slowest in the game.
You are nerfing her CDR hard, but you are not compensating for it. you practically force a CDR buildpath.
I can not believe how after all the backlash from the community on the forums you still cling to the idea that she is "too strong mid". Even non Zyra players disagree with you there.


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LunarisDream

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Quote:
No Pawns Dawns:
You summed it up perfectly. It's not a problem with Zyra. This is the probably the most confusing set of nerfs I've seen on any of the champions I've used in the 3K games I've played. They hit almost every single support champion's base stats to make them incredibly weak, and now they wonder why we see a "support" Annie, Zyra, Fiddle, LB, Brand, every single game.

Yep. Sona is still squishier than a melee minion sans runes and masteries.

I'm Plat V right now with a 28-28 score as Zyra in Ranked. I play her in both mid and bot. As it stands right now, I feel like she does outclass several supports in terms of damage. However, this is not the problem at hand that you need to address. The problem is that supports, despite the new itemization paths introduced in S3, are still terribly pigeonholed into bringing nothing but utility in the game. Any other champion can simply see a support, think "free gold", and start chasing with no fear of being outdamaged. While that's generally the nature of being a support, supports have been nerfed over and over because of their synergy with the marksmen in bot lane. Others have mentioned this in this thread, but the reason unorthodox mid laners are being relegated to the support role is because the design team is providing supports with no threat level as an individual. Tabe brought support Annie into Worlds, and that should be a red flag right there. Twisted Fate was nerfed because his Gold Card could zone out opponents for extended periods of time. Even back then, I was thinking "yet Annie gets away scot-free". Now it's emerging. No support in the game has a point-click instant hard CC that Annie/Lissandra/Fiddlesticks does, and this, coupled with their damage/CC, makes them a much higher threat to the weak traditional supports who have been nerfed through and through. Zyra has sustained damage, and you want to make her damage more sustained, but this goes against the neo-support trend of high magic burst coupled with instant CC. Even Sona's Crescendo has a travel time, allowing skilled players to anticipate and Flash out.

While I have no solution to the "Zyra problem" that you perceive at the moment, I believe there are larger problems to be looked at right now. And soon, before supports are completely taken out of the game in favor of mages who can actually transition into a late game now that Kage's is buffed to 5gp10.


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Aerothal

Recruiter

10-12-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
I don't see 3.13 as hurting mid Zyra much.

In that case rename yourself to "Certainly Lee", 'cause if you cant't see that this is going to hurt mid Zyra you must be blind.