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Mid Zyra Nerf compensation

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Irelia Bot

Member

10-10-2013

Basically they are making her base damage lower and her AP ratios higher.

While this will her her early game all around it does have the potential to make her stronger late game.

The issue that might arise is if they over do it like was done with akali.


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Aurorious

Junior Member

10-10-2013

Yes, i agree she's ridiculous right now. I can EWQW an enemy thresh at level 3 and take half his health. But is there anyway we could keep the passive 20% CDR rather than the drop to 10% found on PBE? Yes i understand that it's op in lane, and i don't disagree. But a big part of what made late game support zyra late game support zyra to me was being able to spam abilities without having to sink gold into cdr. Why not rather than tie it to her W, each ability grants 1% cdr per level (15% once you max QWE) and her ult grants 2%/2%/1% (or even 1%/2%/2%). I realize PBE numbers arn't set in stone, but i wanted to toss this up for consideration.


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Ginga

Recruiter

10-11-2013

Quote:
Domin8tracks:
Basically they are making her base damage lower and her AP ratios higher.

While this will her her early game all around it does have the potential to make her stronger late game.

The issue that might arise is if they over do it like was done with akali.

A negative side effect of nerfing her bases just to buff up her AP scaling is that it royally screws over her effectiveness against assassins pre-6.


But even worse, this kind of change will likely be a NERF to sustained-DPS Zyra while only benefiting pure glass cannon AP burst Zyra. That kind of change is a middle finger for Liandries+Rylai's Zyra.


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Gidoru

Senior Member

10-11-2013

I'm really not understanding why you have to nerf Mid Zyra at all. Changing the base damage/ratios is fine as long as it doesnt result in a damage reduction when buying AP. The cooldown reduction nerf however is excessive and should be reverted.

Even if the changes only hurt mid Zyra a little you're basically nerfing a balanced champion.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Last I checked she is losing early damage. Can't spam seeds/spells as much without building CDR directly and is getting a more reliable combo, you can enrage plants (which do more damage at high ranks btw) more reliably. I see this as helping her combo set up series. She was pushed to Support because she dealt high base damage and also had free wards.


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Ginga

Recruiter

10-11-2013

One more thing...

Quote:
CertainlyT:
All in all, I don't see 3.13 as hurting mid Zyra much.


You shouldn't be hurting a NON-OVERPOWERED CHAMPION even a little bit at all. Do something else to nerf her support. Do it in a way that has zero repercussions on mid Zyra. Make it against the rules to play AP mids as support. Make all other supports as attractive as support Zyra so she won't look so OP anymore.


Or hell, change how the support role works, shake it up enough to the point where Zyra is no longer viable as a support somehow.


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No Pawns Dawns

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
Zyra's more than viable mid lane, although one who has greater matchup variance than our more commonly picked mids like Ahri. If Zyra doesn't feel strong there, that's a problem with her design and I'll take full blame.

That being said, these changes were focused on improving her play pattern (as and against) overall. The base damages we reduced will hurt mid Zyra much less than duo lane Zyra. The seed usability improvements will help both mid and bot Zyra feel like they have greater control over their champion. All in all, I don't see 3.13 as hurting mid Zyra much.


I should have known it was you behind these changes. No, seriously, every champ you've ever created or touched is either gamebreakingly overpowered or completely tossed into the dumpster. We are really letting the guy with a track record that includes Darius and Thresh, touch our favorite plant lady?

Seriously, why are you messing with Morello's plant lady? Please just stop. She doesn't like your naughty touch. Also, how in the world can you say those changes won't affect mid Zyra? She now has to try and find a 10% CDR item to max out CDR. Maybe DFG? Oh wait, we nerfed her range as well and she's a SQUISHY SKILLSHOT BASED CHAMP so DFG is out. Morellonomicon and Athene's both result in a mid zyra with blue wasting 10% CDR, so these items are extremely inefficient. This leaves us with some rather hilariously bad items. OH lets rush a Banner of Command, I hear it's a great item! The only item that even makes a little bit of sense is the Spirit of the Spectral Wraith. Now onto the base damage. Zyra mid in the current meta shines pre level 6. These nerfs will absolutely destroy her early game power, which is what she relies on to stay alive against these assassins we all see every.single.game. Why just a flat out nerf? Seriously? So you take base damage, spell range, and CDR away from her and say nothing will happen to her mid? Go home CertainlyT, you're ****ing drunk.

Then riddle me this. Why even taunt us with increasing seed range, yet decreasing the range of the spell that can turn the seed into a plant? This is a really cruel joke of a nerf.

TLDR: CertainlyT breaks anything he touches and Riot needs to take a serious look at the support role instead of nerfing all of the AP casters that have taken the place of the gutted supports.


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steng4h

Junior Member

10-11-2013

CertainlyT, I do not UNDERSTAND the range changes.

If seeds and Q work together as a combo, why is the range now different on both skills ?
I don't understand why this is a fix.

Quote:
We've also improved Zyra's overall useability with enraging plants / transforming seeds into plants by spells.

Quote:
we also wanted to improve her ability to fluidly combo cast with seeds.


Where ? How ? A different range on Q and W doesn't seem "fluid"

Quote:

Additionally, reducing the base damage of her spells while increasing the AP ratios are aimed at reducing her power as a support without hurting her capabilities as a mage.


This change makes sense


Please confirm on the range and seed gameplay.


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steng4h

Junior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Ginga:
One more thing...



You shouldn't be hurting a NON-OVERPOWERED CHAMPION even a little bit at all. Do something else to nerf her support. Do it in a way that has zero repercussions on mid Zyra. Make it against the rules to play AP mids as support. Make all other supports as attractive as support Zyra so she won't look so OP anymore.


Or hell, change how the support role works, shake it up enough to the point where Zyra is no longer viable as a support somehow.


I agree, riot is making a mistake here and losing some credibility.
Basically, they want to control which champion can go into which lane.

The nerf won't fix the underlying problem with AP mid champions played as supports in S3.


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No Pawns Dawns

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
steng4h:
I agree, riot is making a mistake here and losing some credibility.
Basically, they want to control what champion can go into which lane.

The nerf won't fix the underlying problem with AP mid champions played as supports in S3.


You summed it up perfectly. It's not a problem with Zyra. This is the probably the most confusing set of nerfs I've seen on any of the champions I've used in the 3K games I've played. They hit almost every single support champion's base stats to make them incredibly weak, and now they wonder why we see a "support" Annie, Zyra, Fiddle, LB, Brand, every single game.