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Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

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Arzath

Senior Member

10-19-2013

When They nerfed Rivens Health regen they said Health regen usually only feels good when your ahead but almost non existent when your behind, so we should really go away from the health regen style passive.


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Arzath:
When They nerfed Rivens Health regen they said Health regen usually only feels good when your ahead but almost non existent when your behind, so we should really go away from the health regen style passive.


That's why I also suggested shields or a heal when active turrets get popped as options for the passive. Though regen kinda works for Heimer's kit and playstyle, making it so he can stick around longer in lane and since he tends to alternate between harass and trying to turtle behind his turrets, it gives him pretty noticeable recovery while he's doing his thing. Also his regen is an aura that helps his turrets and other champs, not just self regen like riven. His current passive works for him though, and my idea would add some gameplay to it as well and make it more noticeable and interactive.


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EnderDDT

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Bruticus44:
TL/DR:
Do you think it is possible to release an absolutely perfectly balanced champion onto the live servers without making a single change to the champion once he/she/it is there? If you believe this, then you and I are not standing on common ground and will be unable to debate this topic further.

More in depth:
My point is that theory crafting can only get you so far. And you have to take into account all the changes Heimer has received not just one by one. To give an extreme example, what if a champion had an ability that read "this spell costs 50 health and does nothing" as well as a spell that said "this spell is free and kills target champion." You can't just look at the single spell that does nothing and point out every other spell that is better than it since all the power budget for the champion is going toward the free killing spell.

Isn't Heimer the only champion to have a one time costing spell that theoretically deals an infinite amount of dps? Doesn't the fact that he now has the ability to zone people from 3 stationary areas of constant dps seem to warrant a slightly higher cd on his other abilities?

Frankly I don't know if all the abilities are perfectly balanced right now and neither does Faux. But I do trust that Faux knows where Heimer's stats should be around. I also trust him to tweak Heimer's stats if he ends up being overpowered or underpowered after he hits live.

If Heimer hits live just the way he is on pbe right now and ends up being OP at all levels of play, do you think that people will care he has longer CD's on his spells? What if he is UP? Will Riot just throw up their hands and say, "whelp we tried" without first maybe reducing his CD's?


No, I don't believe that a full balance can be possible in PBE, in fact a full balance isn't even possible in Live (considering the design goals and other game changes); that is why characters are constantly adjusted rather than just "fixed" and then forever ignored. I'm not asking for perfect balance, all I am asking is that his main kit be strong enough that the design team doesn't assume that him not being a problem is due to the problems being fixed and not because he is still nerfed so badly that he /can't/ be a problem.

And make no mistake, his skills are, in fact, some of the weakest in the game.

If it is a matter of pure power budget, then move some things around; but when "power budget" doesn't become a problem for any other character to have spells across the board that are good, then that excuse starts to look a bit flimsy when applied to Heimer and Heimer alone.

Or to give an example of why "power budget" isn't the problem we have Viegar's metior. If any character should have one of his spells nerfed into the ground because of it, it should be that one. He has one spell that gives him the possibility of infinate AP, one spell that deals double AP damage, and one spell that is a long AoE stun with a large area denial/cage mechanic that controls the field of battle for a full 4 seconds (a crazy amount of time in a battle). Furthermore synergy means that his ultimate is even more powerful, his cage greatly reduces the problems with gettintg jumped, and nearly removes the meteor's long cast time as being an issue. And yet the thing is still a lot more powerful than Heimer's spell.


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EnderDDT

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
I find the CDR thing especially interesting because it's a very clear example (to me) of the difference between perception of power vs exercise of power.


Honestly, I would say it keeps coming up because Heimer's cooldowns are about the same or actually longer than they used to be. If the cooldowns were lowered than people would be saying "yay, I don't have to wait to level my ultimate to do more stuff", but instead people are saying "can't we have back that little bit of power that we 'had' before".


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EMKna

Member

10-19-2013

Sheesh, these threads move fast and there are no search functions on this forum. How am I supposed to find my position?

Ah, anyways, this has no relation to what you're talking about now, but...

Hermer's Missiles. Aiming them to spread is a little awkward. So here's an idea, though maybe not a practical one: Make the aiming system Yoshi's Island 2 style.

That is, you click once (or hold with smart cast) to start aiming. The spread oscillates between wide and narrow, and you click again (Or release) to cast. That way, there's no awkward aiming around Hermer's feet to get a nice wide spread. Of course, that introduces a cast delay for either wide or narrow spreading.

Alternatively, there could be a slider; you click, hold, and slide up and down along the path to adjust width, kinda like in a image editing program. Of course, that would require new tech to even test out.


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JollyAmoeba

Senior Member

10-19-2013

After having played heimer quite a bit now on the pbe I've reached some conclusions:
1) That I do now agree that the pbe is a great starting point, it is not the best testing area. I should not be able to maintain an 85%
win rate with him no matter what role I am in.
2) That heimer's power level is either where it should be or perhaps too high. I played support heimer and transitioned that into split push
By building 2gp5s, sight stone, and banner of command. With just those items heimer is able to duel almost anyone it seems like. ( me
and a tank nocturne had some really close fights where he ended with about 200hp starting from 3000) Dueling the enemy adc with
Those was always a breeze since I got boots of swiftness to kite around turrets.
3) That while people (including me) loved to talk about the greater cd on his W and E specifically, that the cd on them seems to be reasonable.
4) I also like where the turret resistances are at. They seem to be lasting long enough that I'm able to replace them easily
Edit: sorry if this post seems clunky, I made it from my phone


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Ranik Ortega

Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
EnderDDT:


And make no mistake, his skills are, in fact, some of the weakest in the game.


You can point that out to the end of time. But you'd best prepare to hear only excuses in return.


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EnderDDT

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
Both his burst and sustained damage numbers are much higher than on live. In order to achieve lower values, Heimer must miss a large portion of his damage combo.

The freedom to miss is buying him the freedom to excel ^^

I understand that you and Aero have become completely convinced that this is a nerf, but the paper math doesn't support your conclusions, the data doesn't agree with you, and as a high skill cap champion players are still figuring out better ways to leverage their power. To be honest, I'm scared ****less that he's secretly weak in ways I don't understand--I'd take any excuse to give him more buffs. There's just not any excuse left.

If we determine he needs a buff, I'll buff him, but boy we are a real long way from having determined that :P


"Heimer must miss a large portion of his combo". That is one of a few issues here, I think. The other is that the previous version of the spells was already nerfed to the ground before the rework started, and yet it seems that old Heimer is still being used as the benchmark "starting point" for PBE Heimer's power.

Finally, a lot of the numbers just don't seem to add up, so us number-crunchers here are trying to figure out why. And this is even not counting in the conditional damage increases.

The first is that is is far more possible for him to miss that portion of his combo. His old rockets had no counterplay as long as heimer could push fast enough. Going from a 100% hit rate to a spell that can often be completely stopped by one or two minions is not a small loss in power. To compare those by saying "the perfect shot with one is better than the normal shot with the other" is a grossly unfair comparison. His old turrets delt damage AoE, insuring that if a champion was nearby he would get hit. His new turrets don't auto-target champions with their auto-attacks (unless they attack heimer), and their beams are easy to dodge and on an painfully long recharge. Saying that a 12% increase in power on a perfect hit makes up for a far larger decrease in normal hit rate doesn't make sense (in the case of the rockets). And a the turrets, if looked at damage over time, actually do less damage (that is /including/ the beams that are on a 12s cooldown).

Second, while we understand that his old spells were nerfed because of their issues, those issues have been delt with. Rocket's auto damage is gone. Global range turrets are gone. Early game powerhouse turrets are gone (and arguably have been for a while). Unstopable wave pushing is gone (and has been for a while). So the question is "where are the power returns that were lost to keep those things under control?" The only thing broken that Heimer has now is the element of obscurity, wherin people can't counter him because he is so rare that they don't know what to do against him.

I can't stress this last point enough. Heimer's old rockets guranteed a hit when there were less than three minions nearby. Heimer's new rockets can be completely blocked by a single minion, and even without minions the opponent has the option to dodge for no or partial damage. This /needs/ to be factored into the power calculations. Heimer's old turrets allowed him to hold two lanes at once and contribute from literally anywhere on the map. You could quadruple the range and they still wouldn't have that capability. If you tripple the range than they would serve as easily clearable wards that would deal some damage before being destroyed (as opposed to just baiting the heimer in to an easy gank when he went to replace them, which they would still do). If you double the range they wouldn't give away Heimer's immediate position and would allow him to set them up widely without having to stand in the center of them. His turrets already lost a lot of defensiveness when they were cut down to two and later game changes (minion buffing and penetration changes) have made one shotting turrets in the lane phase possible on live when turrets aren't given leveling priority. Furthermore the passive regen to minions is gone, putting an end to heimer's unstopable giant minion waves (the only form of superpush Heimer has left). Yet this loss of capability is seemingly not even factored into the power calculations.

Finally, as for the math, we have a few "issues" that don't seem to match up.
Here are the rocket numbers, first old, second new, third and forth are adjusted for lv18 with the same CDR (to allow for damage numbers to be compared on an even playing field) The first line is labels, the second is cooldown (with parenthesis for the lv18 standardised ones), the third is minimum damage, the forth is max damage under perfect conditions, the fifth and sixth lines are AP ratios under minimal and perfect conditions. It may help to copy this chart to a document page in order to line things up and read it better, though I have tried to line it up as much as possible:
labels * * CD * base * MX base * AP * MX AP
Live * * * 10s. 85-285 225-855* .55ap 1.65ap
PBE * * ** 11s. 60-180 105-325* .45ap .81ap
adj Live* (10s) **-356 ***-1068 ***** 2.63ap
adj PBE * (10s) **-163 ***-295* ***** .74ap

The only way to make the PBE numbers higher was to assume that the enemy was perfectly arrayed to allow you to hit all five seperate champions, but even this basically disappears after adjusting for CD. Comparing the enemy team purposefully arraying themselves to be hit with the unlikely 3 target shot shown above is just silly. But "FOR GREAT SCIENCE!!!" I give you the numbers anyway. Here are the PBE Split Shot numbers:

PBE SS * * 11s. ****** 300-900* ***** 2.25ap
adj PBE SS(10s) ****** 272-818* ***** 2.05ap

Note: I did not count in the effects of Heimer's old Ultimate other than the CDR. The same type of math can easily be applied to his Turrets and his grenade.

Of course, considering that Heimer's ult deals damage now, this would push his new numbers to be higher than his old ones even after the nerfing of his other skills. That said, I would gladly accept a reduction in the Ult's power if that meant not having to be sub-par for the 100/80/60 seconds that my ult was down. This is why they call it a nerf, because the ultimate cannot be used all the time. Furthermore, the fact that heimer started out neumerically behind in order to compensate for gamebreaking issues has still not been addressed (Please excuse me for continually harping on that issue, it /is/ kind of an important one).


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

10-19-2013

^
tl;dr: Heimer is pretty weak without his ultimate and feels that way too. Move power out of ultimate and into other abilities.

I have no opinions on that suggestion.

Quote:
EMKna:
Sheesh, these threads move fast and there are no search functions on this forum. How am I supposed to find my position?

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3725383


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Ranik Ortega

Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Tortferngatr:
^
tl;dr: Heimer is pretty weak without his ultimate and feels that way too. Move power out of ultimate and into other abilities.

I have no opinions on that suggestion.


http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3725383



Yep. This is basically the crux of the issue. So much of his power has been given to his ult that he's essentially useless anytime it isn't available. The CD of his W and E are now a major issue.

And even if it is available you had better completely nail the ult + whatever otherwise you've just wasted your entire payload and have an 80 -60s wait while being underpowered...