Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
EnderDDT:
Heimerdinger live is /not/ where you should be basing his power budget off of. I repeat. Heimerdinger live is greatly underpowered in return for certain aspects that have been deemed either uncounterable or toxic or otherwise problematic. Some of the biggest offenders are the automatic damage of his rockets at long range with no other mechanic available for counter other than "hide behind 3 or 5 of your buddies" and his unlimited range high utility turrets that could damage towers that were a pain if leveled early. This was partially delt with by giving Heimer unusually long cooldowns but giving him free CDR to compensate into late game. All of this is now gone.

Lets start with his rockets. The "closest targets" mechanic is gone, which was the problem. With this gone his numbers should be much higher for a damage-only spell that is a blockable skillshot with a interesting but somewhat complex mechanic that forces you to aim multiple vectors. The cooldown compared to most other skillshots of similar champions is way too high as well. His cooldown passive is gone, so compare his numbers to others and you will see what I mean.

His turrets no longer have global range. That is fine, but the range the do have is too unbearably low. When the information given isn't "heimer is around, he hasn't actually gone back" but "heimer is in that bush there because it is the only one close enough to reach his turrets" that stops being a "feture allowing counterplay" and starts being a "liability". Seriously, he can't even place a turret at one /side/ of the lane and walk over to the other /side/ of the lane without deactivating it. Seriously lane widths are greater than the activation teather is. A lot of characters have abilities that reach a lot longer than the activation range, and they don't have to deal with the problem of being "teathered" to multiple positions at once to try to keep them all active. What good is it to try to set up complex patterns of defense if you can't actually keep those defenses active because of the activation range? Tripling the range would not lead to the old problems but would easily make the turrets useful for more than just immediate personal defense.

Furthermore turrets are targeted with priority by towers, this is a loss in power that Heimer was never compensated for. Again, Heimer's current level of power should /not/ be the basis of his reworks power budget.

Furthermore the PBE turrets no longer have the same utility that they did before as they lack the AoE damage that made them such efficent large-wave clearers and the defense reduction that made them dangerous back when stacking multiple types of penetration and reduction didn't stack so effeciently. Times have changed and his defense reduction is less important, but it was still power that he was balanced around having back when that power actually mattered. Furthermore the utility of wave clearing is not anywhere near similar, as it takes two turrets to only sometimes do the job of what one could do before in terms of large wave clearing (and this requires you to stand next to it to keep it working).

Furthermore heimer's CDR is gone. This was always a problematic aspect to him, as it is obvious in comparing his spells with other characters spells that his numbers are higher to balance; but because Heimer was an early-game champion and this was one of the few things that really helped his late game, it was less of an issue. Heimer was out of balance and needed fixed, and this was something of a stopgap measure. But a rework means being able to fix the problems that made that CDR necessary. An 11s cooldown on a poke is crazy compared to 6-8s cooldowns other characters have. Again, this is why live heimer is not where the power budget should be originating from.

While I and most others don't expect him to be "release Xin-Xhau" or "hotfix worthy LeBlanc" we do want him to be "competitive". This is further an issue with those of us who have been waiting for a Heimer rework for /literally/ years because something has become obvious to us: the live team is afraid of Heimer. He has been a problem in the past, such that they appear afraid to buff him in any major way for fear that he might reemerge. Heck, the "turret targeting priorities" change was a nerf that was literally targeted toward Heimer and similar characters. So the fear is that if Heimer isn't done right so that he is no longer toxic but still competitive the live team will just say "he isn't a problem because he is still uncompetitive, lets keep him that way to prevent further problems" rather than saying, "the problematic aspects have been delt with, we can move forward with normal balancing".

TL/DR: Heimer has a LOT of excess power budget left to work with. He doesn't need /any/ of his numbers to be on par with live to be balanced. This is the reason for the rework, afterall.

Let me just repost this... This post is pure gold.. There is NO WAY he doesn't have tons of power budget left with all of the things you took out and things you have nerfed over the years.

PURE ****ING GOLD


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EnderDDT

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
Live Heimerdinger's numbers are not a factor in determining the power of the rework. The post of mine you're replying to is itself a reply to another post--one of the dangers of maintaining such a long thread xD


I wasn't sure, so I figured I might as well say it. The post you were replying to mentioned that he felt this was a nerf because the average damage on the missile "nuke" was reduced (after factoring in misses and blocking due to it being a skill-shot). It was the post that ended with "Basically he is now a "sustained nuker" without any built in sustain and a good portion of his Nuke cut down." When you replied saying "Having his damage be lower if he misses his skillshots... is exactly the point" it sounded like you were comparing his new damage to his damage before in live, despite the fact that the damage in live was nerfed to accomidate the automatic nature of the spell wheras a skillshot should have the damage increased to make up for the more difficult nature of the ability. It sounds now like you were only saying that skillshots miss and that reduces the damage sometimes.

Well, at least we got that cleared up. Might I suggest seeing what happens if you reduce all Heimer's base cooldowns by 20% or even 40% (with the possible exception of his ult)? A 7 second damage only skillshot and a 11s-7s skillshot CC are both well within the normal power curve for the game, and a 14s-12s base turret cooldown would go a long way toward convincing people that "replace when they die" is a viable alternative to "feel sad when the ADC one or two-shots them".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EnderDDT

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Some turret numbers directly taken from PBE:

Lv Hp Ar Mr
1 150 10 25
2 175 10 25
3 200 10 25
4 225 10 25
5 250 10 25
6 270 10 25
7 300 13 25
8 325 13 25
9 350 15 28
10 375 15 28
11 400 17 30
12 425 20 30
13 450 23 32
14 475 25 35
15 500 30 38
16 525 35 40
17 550 40 42
18 575 45 45

Notice that the HP number at lv6 is a bit off the pattern, this is a bug demonstrated in PBE. I tested these numbers against a few bots and found some very interesting things. At Lv4 it was demonstrated that Warwick can two-shot the turrets with nothing but a Dorian's Shield. He can do the same at lv 10 with a Mallet as his only damage item. At lv 14 Renecton can nearly two shot a turret with his only item being a Dorian's. I was the same or higher level than my opponents in all these cases. Examples such as these are the reason why so many people are saying the defenses on the turrets is still too low. Remember, at level 18 their defenses stop rising but opponents continue getting stronger, so they need to have enough extra defenses by that point to last them though the rest of the game.

(Edit) I'm still not sure how those are possible. WW at level 4 should not have enough damage without items to two shot the turret, for instance, but I very clearly saw it happen. If anyone knows how this happened, I would very much like to know.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ranik Ortega

Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
EnderDDT:
I wasn't sure, so I figured I might as well say it. The post you were replying to mentioned that he felt this was a nerf because the average damage on the missile "nuke" was reduced (after factoring in misses and blocking due to it being a skill-shot). It was the post that ended with "Basically he is now a "sustained nuker" without any built in sustain and a good portion of his Nuke cut down." When you replied saying "Having his damage be lower if he misses his skillshots... is exactly the point" it sounded like you were comparing his new damage to his damage before in live, despite the fact that the damage in live was nerfed to accomidate the automatic nature of the spell wheras a skillshot should have the damage increased to make up for the more difficult nature of the ability. It sounds now like you were only saying that skillshots miss and that reduces the damage sometimes.

Well, at least we got that cleared up. Might I suggest seeing what happens if you reduce all Heimer's base cooldowns by 20% or even 40% (with the possible exception of his ult)? A 7 second damage only skillshot and a 11s-7s skillshot CC are both well within the normal power curve for the game, and a 14s-12s base turret cooldown would go a long way toward convincing people that "replace when they die" is a viable alternative to "feel sad when the ADC one or two-shots them".


You put it better than I could and yeah I was trying to stress the "He's not really strong in cooldown or damage so he's got the downsides of both worlds"

Quote:
EnderDDT:

Notice that the HP number at lv6 is a bit off the pattern, this is a bug demonstrated in PBE. I tested these numbers against a few bots and found some very interesting things. At Lv4 it was demonstrated that Warwick can two-shot the turrets with nothing but a Dorian's Shield. He can do the same at lv 10 with a Mallet as his only damage item. At lv 14 Renecton can nearly two shot a turret with his only item being a Dorian's. I was the same or higher level than my opponents in all these cases. Examples such as these are the reason why so many people are saying the defenses on the turrets is still too low. Remember, at level 18 their defenses stop rising but opponents continue getting stronger, so they need to have enough extra defenses by that point to last them though the rest of the game.


That's still pretty bad.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IrontailPikachu

Member

10-15-2013

to the guys that say heimer still has a lot of room left in the budget of power if you watch some people play heimer has definatley improved if he isnt balanced id say hes real close...from what ive seen on youtube heimerdinger can handle himself ALOT better now. ive seen heimer with 30% health or so running from champions with basically full health multiple times stoping in the brush stunning them setting down turrets and ulting them and completley destroy them(yeah the old hiemer can do this to with zhonyas and all but not as effectivley as ive been watching people do). i know that its cause there arent alot of very high skill players on there but lets say they lowerd the cooldowns of his moves rockets cooldown of 7 and added 30 base damage and the grenade cooldown to 9 and added 50 base damage would you say he is prolly competition ready/balanced appropriatley?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yousing

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Battlecast Heimer and MUMBO JUMBO HEIMER should be his release skins!!! Think about those awesome concepts!! :OOOO!!

http://banjokazooie.wikia.com/wiki/Mumbo_Jumbo


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IrontailPikachu

Member

10-15-2013

since heimy wont be getting a visual update on release could you maybe possibly pull some strings and get snowmerdinger to come back upon release of the new dinger? (i know someone is gonna tell me to shut up and that i only want the skin cause its super rare blah blah blah... thats not true i just really think that the skin is pure awesomeness and i cant help that i wasnt a member when that was available) i noticed there bringing back alot of the legacy skins and snowmerdinger wasnt on there :/ anything at all you can do for us faux?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
IrontailPikachu:
since heimy wont be getting a visual update on release could you maybe possibly pull some strings and get snowmerdinger to come back upon release of the new dinger? (i know someone is gonna tell me to shut up and that i only want the skin cause its super rare blah blah blah... thats not true i just really think that the skin is pure awesomeness and i cant help that i wasnt a member when that was available) i noticed there bringing back alot of the legacy skins and snowmerdinger wasnt on there :/ anything at all you can do for us faux?

The skins they are bringing back are ones they put out for certain events and such and threw into the vault right after and said they wouldn't come back ever. Having a small window for skins when at certain times the playerbase wasn't even all that high the way it is now was decided to be not very fair. Snowmerdinger was a christmas skin and is released at christmas times i think. or if not its random times because it was released initially at christmas time (2011? i think) and it got released for a short while last year as well.

TBH, ummm no. I understand why they are releasing those other skins. But snowmerdinger has been released more than once already and if they release it again soon then i better be getting my money back like everyone else is for these other limited edition ones that they are re-releasing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TFU42

Junior Member

10-15-2013

idea for passive (kind of stolen from another post) heimerdinger while in his turrets range has a speed boost of x% which stacks up to 3 times. This will help with kiting and can be used different ways. If you want to be able to move really fast in a same area have the turrets nest or move a little fast in a large area spread them out. I am thinging the % could be something around 3% so at max it would be 9%.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
TFU42:
idea for passive (kind of stolen from another post) heimerdinger while in his turrets range has a speed boost of x% which stacks up to 3 times. This will help with kiting and can be used different ways. If you want to be able to move really fast in a same area have the turrets nest or move a little fast in a large area spread them out. I am thinging the % could be something around 3% so at max it would be 9%.

these "within area" things don't make sense. He already is REQUIRED to stay in the area or else his turrets shut down. Not in the area? His turrets shut down and his passive doesn't matter anyway.