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Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

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DreamsOfGrandeur

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
There's a lot to like here. Hmmm... is 60% enough? A lot of stuff that lives mid can 60-0 a Dinger pretty quickly.


To add to my other post about how it's focused on sieging, less on early lane survival (which should open the floor in terms of power budget):

An alternative would be to have the bonus be based on missing health straight from 1% missing to 90% missing. (like with Maw of Malmortius, no one really cares about a bonus they get below 10% HP, they're usually dead by then)


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Vroggoth

Member

10-15-2013

༼ ºل͟º ༽ I am become dong, destroyer of worlds.༼ ºل͟º ༽


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cacaface123

Junior Member

10-15-2013

how about this for a new possible passive, i think it could work for both mid and support donger

Q - Cannon attacks give X amount of health each time it hits an enemy and Y amount for laser. RQ -gives double the amount.

W - Each rocket that hits an enemy champion gives X amount of mana for a maximum amount of Y mana (cap is for RW)

E - Next auto attack against a stunned enemy deals X amount of bonus damage.

and the stats increase as you level

Can make landing your skill shots more rewarding and can improve the poke in support donger


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Thryale

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
There's a lot to like here. Hmmm... is 65% enough? A lot of stuff that lives mid can 65-0 a Dinger pretty quickly.


here's a thought, why not make it persist for X amount of seconds after being triggered? That way, he can heal up past 65% into a safe zone. If any champ is below the thresh hold, the passive continues to refresh until the 65% thresh hold is passed.


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Samflash3

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Will the turret automatically target Heim's turret? If so, why? I thought he was a siege champion like Ziggs?


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Thryale

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
DreamsOfGrandeur:
Is it weird that I read this is a heavy Communist-stereotypical Russian accent?


Dis is vy you muzt build the GLORious TANKerDInger, dezTROYer uf ZEds end CRUSHer of KasziDIns.


is it odd I instantly thought of viktor when I read his post?


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DreamsOfGrandeur

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
Thryale:
is it odd I instantly thought of viktor when I read his post?


That's probably cause Viktor has the exact Russian accent I am going for (now that I stop and ponder it a little).


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EnderDDT

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
Having his damage be lower if he misses his skillshots and does no damage with turrets is exactly the point ^^

A damage analysis that includes turrets and hit W produces huge damage numbers, but that doesn't mean he's release Xin Zhao :P


Heimerdinger live is /not/ where you should be basing his power budget off of. I repeat. Heimerdinger live is greatly underpowered in return for certain aspects that have been deemed either uncounterable or toxic or otherwise problematic. Some of the biggest offenders are the automatic damage of his rockets at long range with no other mechanic available for counter other than "hide behind 3 or 5 of your buddies" and his unlimited range high utility turrets that could damage towers that were a pain if leveled early. This was partially delt with by giving Heimer unusually long cooldowns but giving him free CDR to compensate into late game. All of this is now gone.

Lets start with his rockets. The "closest targets" mechanic is gone, which was the problem. With this gone his numbers should be much higher for a damage-only spell that is a blockable skillshot with a interesting but somewhat complex mechanic that forces you to aim multiple vectors. The cooldown compared to most other skillshots of similar champions is way too high as well. His cooldown passive is gone, so compare his numbers to others and you will see what I mean.

His turrets no longer have global range. That is fine, but the range the do have is too unbearably low. When the information given isn't "heimer is around, he hasn't actually gone back" but "heimer is in that bush there because it is the only one close enough to reach his turrets" that stops being a "feture allowing counterplay" and starts being a "liability". Seriously, he can't even place a turret at one /side/ of the lane and walk over to the other /side/ of the lane without deactivating it. Seriously lane widths are greater than the activation teather is. A lot of characters have abilities that reach a lot longer than the activation range, and they don't have to deal with the problem of being "teathered" to multiple positions at once to try to keep them all active. What good is it to try to set up complex patterns of defense if you can't actually keep those defenses active because of the activation range? Tripling the range would not lead to the old problems but would easily make the turrets useful for more than just immediate personal defense.

Furthermore turrets are targeted with priority by towers, this is a loss in power that Heimer was never compensated for. Again, Heimer's current level of power should /not/ be the basis of his reworks power budget.

Furthermore the PBE turrets no longer have the same utility that they did before as they lack the AoE damage that made them such efficent large-wave clearers and the defense reduction that made them dangerous back when stacking multiple types of penetration and reduction didn't stack so effeciently. Times have changed and his defense reduction is less important, but it was still power that he was balanced around having back when that power actually mattered. Furthermore the utility of wave clearing is not anywhere near similar, as it takes two turrets to only sometimes do the job of what one could do before in terms of large wave clearing (and this requires you to stand next to it to keep it working).

Furthermore heimer's CDR is gone. This was always a problematic aspect to him, as it is obvious in comparing his spells with other characters spells that his numbers are higher to balance; but because Heimer was an early-game champion and this was one of the few things that really helped his late game, it was less of an issue. Heimer was out of balance and needed fixed, and this was something of a stopgap measure. But a rework means being able to fix the problems that made that CDR necessary. An 11s cooldown on a poke is crazy compared to 6-8s cooldowns other characters have. Again, this is why live heimer is not where the power budget should be originating from.

While I and most others don't expect him to be "release Xin-Xhau" or "hotfix worthy LeBlanc" we do want him to be "competitive". This is further an issue with those of us who have been waiting for a Heimer rework for /literally/ years because something has become obvious to us: the live team is afraid of Heimer. He has been a problem in the past, such that they appear afraid to buff him in any major way for fear that he might reemerge. Heck, the "turret targeting priorities" change was a nerf that was literally targeted toward Heimer and similar characters. So the fear is that if Heimer isn't done right so that he is no longer toxic but still competitive the live team will just say "he isn't a problem because he is still uncompetitive, lets keep him that way to prevent further problems" rather than saying, "the problematic aspects have been delt with, we can move forward with normal balancing".

TL/DR: Heimer has a LOT of excess power budget left to work with. He doesn't need /any/ of his numbers to be on par with live to be balanced. This is the reason for the rework, afterall.


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BadgerDrool

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:

At the end of the day, the current passive's problem is how it feels--it can only be appreciated cerebrally, instead of on a gut level.



Gragas basically has the better version of Heimer's passive. A higher regen per spell cast can be appreciated viscerally. It can have a spell effect showing it's active. It's something Gragas players know to trigger and rely on. More then can be said for Heimers?

Maybe Heimer could have a pure health regen passive that affects him and his turrets (no matter where they are on the map) and friendly champions within X distance on spell cast?


Edit:
Wait better idea. Make it Trigger on autoattacks and give it a cooldown. Tune it so if it's used every time the CD comes up it works out to provide as much HP regen as his current passive. (if not a little more?). Bam way more visceral and makes AA harass for support heimer useful.


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ThorHammerz

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
There's a lot to like here. Hmmm... is 65% enough? A lot of stuff that lives mid can 65-0 a Dinger pretty quickly.


How about making his health regeneration similar to 'Mana Font' (Veigar Passive/Athenes mana regen paradigm)?

I.e. for every 1% max hp missing, increases the base amount the passive gives by 1% (maybe not the champion's total health regen?).