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Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

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Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-15-2013

What skill do you max first and why?
Q or W. E literally does nothing for you on level up. Crappy base damage, crappy ratio, no increased stun duration or radius. In the old kit you could max it if you wanted the longer blind but it generally wasnt your best choice but still, it was an option.
Which ult is your favorite and why?
RW Rockets provide damage no matter what (Provided i dont COMPLETELY whiff) and a lot of it at that.

If i drop my RQ and they decide to change direction or back off then i just wasted my ult.

RE feels useless a lot of the time i use it. Although i see the uses where it could be good in like jungle fights where people are really really grouped i usually only end up hitting 1 person with it because the 2nd and 3rd bounces don't go all that far and people generally don't stand right next to each other in lane if they are smart lol. Also, the damage on it feels subpar but thats because of its giant amounts of utility.


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Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-15-2013

Something that has been brought up before by me and by others.

The passive CD reduction that was on his ult.

That CD reduc was HUGE part of the way i built. If I don't start up CD reduction into my build early now then i feel gimped because of his long CD's. It feels impossible to be able to legitimately build a tear now because of having to go chalice or morello for CD reduc early. I wouldn't need nearly that much mana regen and getting a tear too late is just an extreme waste of gold.

Now, i'm not asking for the full 20% back... But can we at LEAST get 10% CD reduction on his ult? That way i can put points into utility 9/0/21 and start with 10% and hit 20% at lvl 6 and i can justify building a tear and a catalyst early.


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Highborne

Recruiter

10-15-2013

Why did you remove his Cooldown passive? his ult is now pretty worthless besides to buff his missiles.

Between the loss of his cooldown passive, and his actual passive being worthless. I am pretty sure I saw when I tested him on the PBE that he had ZERO HP/5 regen except his passive at level 1, he has 4.5 base on live right? Where did his base HP/5 go?

He should also be 10-15 speed quicker, I mean he has no escape at all now.


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absolutkfx

Junior Member

10-15-2013

Hi long time heimerdinger player and so far I like where this is going. Played a couple games on pbe and here is my opinion on a couple of things.

I am still playing around with pbe heimer and I definitely like the touches you did. I am surprised no one noticed you added 10 extra move speed to him which is kind of weird which is a real good touch thank you for that he really needed it. What I did notice what I don't like is that when you go the archangel's staff route you lose ap. Live Heimer gets 132 total ap while pbe heimer gets 118 total ap. I noticed the lvl up mana went down from 65 to 40 which I can see why since all the skills went down in mana which was a major issue. Most old heimer players might fall in that trap since most of us are used to building archangels on heimer.

I definitely don't mind keeping the old passive even though its been nerfed since you don't get to heal towers in when playing on the backfoot. What would be made more interesting is just say depending on level the aura of keeping the turrets fighting grows or as you level the longer the turrets stay active because I can see myself in the teamfight or in lane the 1000 aura might hamper me fighting and might even deactivating when my turret is about to kill someone who underestimated the dive.

On the turrets deactivating I can see why it was implemented but what kills me about it is when it does the vision is decreased significantly. At the very least the turret should act like a "visible ward". I like the turrets I want to see how much tankier they get with the resistance added to it. The aa from the turrets will take getting used to on csing since I am used to the shots hitting harder but the beams are a nice touch. There is some incentive on lvling which adds lower cd. Thank you for lowering the mana cost to 20 at all levels. I have to say though that is really low. If you had to nerf anything on this kit I would raise that to 30 if anything.

The missles is very good I think I posted on a forum you introducing yourself and I asked you about the missles being a skill shot and you couldn't reveal anything yet. I understand its much better to see it for myself. The hit is very good and I especially like the R version of it. If people say nerf the R version I would say no because I can see alot of counterplay to it. Almost like if a tank sees their adc getting nailed by it they can act like it was a cait ult and stand in front of it or just simply being dodged.

The nades is where I have my most problem with. Many people say the blind was important but to be honest I thought the blind was just a gimmick. Most of the time the adc would juke the nade anyway since it was so slow and you would have to be so close to anyone to get the hit off that in the laning phase I would use it for 2 purposes. If I get ganked I would use it more like a melee stun to get away and the other reason is to farm. The old nades had a wayyyy bigger aoe and it hit harder that if I find that my turrets are going down too fast I would use the nade missle combo to clear waves instead. I give it to the new nades that the speed of them will catch people and I can really hit people with it where the old nades would have no chance in hell but I feel im stunning people less and the damage feels way less. I was hoping in that the nades would be a good option to lvl up first but unlike how I do now on the live version where either I level it up 3rd or sometimes 2nd when turrets are not a good option against champs that have good options to take them out quickly. As they are right now I their is no reason to ever level them up even second since the aoe is to small to hit lots of minions and the hit power is much less than the live version. I feel there must be more of an incentive on the nades to lvl up. It would be nice to slightly aoe (not the aoe on the stun I can see a problem with that)and increase base power to live levels so heimer has a minion clearing option against champs that have a good antiturret laning game.

Also once you nail down some of the bugs to the point that you need further refinement I think you and xelnath should do an AMA on reddit. I have a feeling there are many pbers that don't know much about this forum or the next best thing post on reddit the link to this thread. Thank you for working on my main and all time favorite lol champ.


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Pucedark

Recruiter

10-15-2013

my 3 turret die one shot by laser of Viktor even if they are not stick together ... thats hard ... i need to wait more than 1 minutes to get them back ... and he (viktor) can do it each couple of sec !

Cant wait to see turret with more durability ! :P


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Fomorian27

Recruiter

10-15-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
So do I! I've watched the feedback like a hawk, here and elsewhere, positive and negative.

Whether the current kit is OP or UP has been hotly contested, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable doing a broad buff or nerf of his power level based on data this scattered, but I absolutely am still listening and plan to give him power where the people who are sad need it most.

The #1 overwhelming point of negative feedback has been 'turrets too squishy', and the resists bugfix should be coming in today-ish, I believe. There's no clear second place point of agreed-upon feedback, but a turret autoattack range buff would hit a lot of the little ones--overall efficacy, support lane, their placement being unforgiving, and the dang caster minions outranging them bug that won't go away. To that end, I plan to buff their attack range.

I don't promise to always agree, but I absolutely promise to listen to every piece of feedback no matter its nature! More data = better than, for all champions but especially for Heimerdinger. Also, it's thematically appropriate xD


Faux, can I just say you sound like an insanely positive person. You've already wowed me with the work you put into the rework, which is fantastic btw, but the way you've been so freaking transparent even when you didn't need to be is just awesome.


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Greenshaw

Senior Member

10-15-2013

So far ive looked over this thread and im so pumped. The one thing i ask is not to change heimer's passive from his original one. The natural sustain from his passive allowed heimer to start dorans ring, mana pot, hp pot and proceed to wreck lane if he wasnt ganked. His passive allowed him to be able to walk up and rocket trade with them and generally win it if he wasnt hit by a full spell rotation. Please dont change his passive.


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Chess435

Recruiter

10-15-2013

Since turret resists still aren't properly working, (as of last night, at least) could we get a table of what they're supposed to be?

Also, if you have a little bit of power budget left over, could you make it so Heimer's turrets gain double benefit from his passive? Right now it just doesn't feel impactful at keeping them alive.


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Blowrac

Junior Member

10-15-2013

Faux, lets base heimer's passive on his core ability (the turret).
New Passive: For each of Heimer's turrets in range, Heimer and his turrets gain +5% Magic Resist and +5% Armor.

This allows for more build diversity allowing a tanky heimer to benefit from more mr and armor in team fights as well as provide a slight benefit to using ultimate on a 4th turret as it will give you some additional survivability to offset the fact that the turret may not remain relevent in the team fight if it moves.

Of course these numbers could be adjusted for balance, but I think on average the 5% per turret would be fairly balanced and would force the donger to chose between using all turrets in the fight or using some for vision or zoning out of range of the passive. This solution would only be benefitial in team fights and would also give more choices to opponents on whether or not to focus turrets or the donger first Please let me know what you all think of this passive!


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20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-15-2013

Quote:
Ravors Malody:
--- your not finished.

Base stats need fixing, especially HP. Armor. and oh god mspd


I've talked about your other concerns in different posts, but I wanted to touch on this because I haven't talked about base stats in quite a while.

He actually does get +10 movement speed with this rework. I'd said otherwise earlier, but I've been playing with this version so long I lost track of it xD