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Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

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Rúbis

Member

10-14-2013

Overall like the changes- A few critiques and a suggestion:

I will sound like a broken record- but another person who thinks the turrets are too squishy.

I think the range is a bit low/ the laser is a bit slow.

rockets seem rewarding as well as the bomb.

Ultimate is cool for the W+E but I only ever used the Q when I thought I was going to die (It does a large amount of damage to melee assassins with no escape, I usually killed them if they were going to get away with 400-500 hp)

My suggestion is to make the Ultimate+Q combo make his tiny turrets slow.
Another thought is to make his tiny turrets shoot lasers for however many seconds .

On the passive- I agree that I think it doesn't fit too well with his kit, but also agree that it should be fairly low-key and benefit him when he's down more than when he's up. I was thinking that he might have more Armor+Magic resist for every turret NOT on the field. Like for every turret not placed he'd get (5/10/15 AR+MR) so with 1 turret placed he might have 10 armor at low levels, 20 at mid game, and 30 late game?

Thanks for the time


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20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-14-2013

Quote:
Ranik Ortega:
A very good point. People have gotten so used to Hiemer being nerfed pretty badly and think that he still has to remain at his current strength. When if anything he needs better overall scaling for late game. And comparable ability strength to many other champions.

Which hasn't happened yet.

Previously he was a sustained DPS nuker. But with the CD reduction changes that's not as true anymore. So he needs some better scaling and AP ratios pretty soon.

The alternative is to still keep him crippled, just in a different way.


On paper, Heimer's sustained DPS with RQ is far higher than live and he can opt to have a pretty big pile of burst if he can achieve it. The goal is that whether he reaches those heights is up to how he and his opponents play--the skill ceiling is higher and the skill floor is lower.

If it's too hard or too easy to achieve those heights, balance will step in, but PBE is for bugfixing/gameplay first--it's tricky to get hard balance data out of an unranked environment. I'll be watching/adjusting balance as much as I can, but I can't go crazy without some actual evidence.

It's also worth mentioning: With changes this vast, any sufficiently large pool of players will reveal pie slices of all opinion types. Only time and actual hard data will tell, but I definitely expect to hear that he's OP, UP, perfect, and everything in between. The only thing I am 100% convinced about is that our internal assessment of his balance will be proven wrong by the players. As strategies evolve, the power level of Heimer in games will change, making it impossible to just "figure it out" ahead of time because it is a moving target.

The only way to solve the puzzle for a champ this complex is to get more data, in my opinion ^^


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GuiltyGecko

Senior Member

10-14-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
Couple questions for you fine folks:

What skill do you max first and why?

Which ult is your favorite and why?


Live donger, I ranked up E first because of blind. With blind gone (kind of sad) I have been alternating between E and Q. Not sure which I like better, needs more testing. I like Q for lane control, but the range issue still exist. I like E for the lower CD, but I wish it still had the blind. Maybe it could have a blind effect on the outer radius. So the more accurate you are the better the effect gets. Outer radius=blind, middle=slow, center=stun.

My favorite ult is the Q, the slow from the turret helps peel for the ADC. That's what I use Donger's ult for now on live.

Also related to a post from earlier about turret ranges:
I am glad you decided to buff turret ranges. I was about to come on here today and argue about Zyra's Q plant ranges being 700 and that being fine lol. Seems you have already agreed with the buff though, so I hope it fixes a lot of his problems. Also, the range his turrets stay on is a bit short. I was thinking that he should be able to turret ward side bushes in mid and river bush from bot side bushes. That would be a good range of influence.


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Ranik Ortega

Member

10-14-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
On paper, Heimer's sustained DPS with RQ is far higher than live and he can opt to have a pretty big pile of burst if he can achieve it. The goal is that whether he reaches those heights is up to how he and his opponents play--the skill ceiling is higher and the skill floor is lower.

If it's too hard or too easy to achieve those heights, balance will step in, but PBE is for bugfixing/gameplay first--it's tricky to get hard balance data out of an unranked environment. I'll be watching/adjusting balance as much as I can, but I can't go crazy without some actual evidence.

It's also worth mentioning: With changes this vast, any sufficiently large pool of players will reveal pie slices of all opinion types. Only time and actual hard data will tell, but I definitely expect to hear that he's OP, UP, perfect, and everything in between. The only thing I am 100% convinced about is that our internal assessment of his balance will be proven wrong by the players. As strategies evolve, the power level of Heimer in games will change, making it impossible to just "figure it out" ahead of time because it is a moving target.

The only way to solve the puzzle for a champ this complex is to get more data, in my opinion ^^


As I said before making him rely entirely on his ult for sustained damage is an iffy prospect in my opinion as he's not a character given to clutch plays as much as sustained effect and field control.

I suppose that's the problem with balance. It's fairly obvious that the changes will still leave him not entirely competitive in higher ranks but by how much the numbers need to change we don't know yet.

Have to wait till live I suppose.


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20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-14-2013

Quote:
Sovius:
Ok, I've played Heimy since I started LoL almost two years ago. I just finished playing my 20th or so match on PBE and I figured I'd go ahead and post on here.

...

TLDR; I like the Heimer changes overall. R+W and R+E are extremely rewarding. R+Q is not quite as rewarding, IMO. I just hope that turrets get tweaked before release. (AND MAYBE the slow from R will be re-implemented? xD)


Sweet, thanks for your perspective! Here's a few things you might find interesting:

You're quite right about Q being bugged, there's scaling resists based on Heimer's level that should be coming in soon (today I think?). I'm also planning on increasing their attack range. That being said, I should point out their dps is not nerfed because now there are 3 of them. They actually deal more damage and threaten at greater range

As for the slow on R, it does survive! It's on the RQ. Easy to miss in the huge tooltip, but if you go something like E Q RQ Q (W if time) Zhonya when an assassin dives you, you can rip them into tiny little pieces xD

Laser speed is tricky. It bumps against the same limitations as E, actually: We basically didn't want them to be oppressive to champions who came to lane with no boots. Heimer is mainly featured mid, so he's frequently against champs that have base movespeed only. We ended up making the skills slower in an absolute sense, but giving them windows of opportunity.

For example, if Heimer hits a grenade, all nearby turrets will immediately fire their beams well outside their normal AI beam radius. Champions diving into the nest will almost never be able to avoid the beams. Melee champions get hit easily by E. These type of things.

My point being: We actually have more levers to make turret beams feel good than may initially appear. We can adjust speed / warning time / etc, but players are still figuring out ways to make the beams situationally stronger instead of generally stronger--this incurs less cost to the rest of his kit and lets Heimer outplay his opponents, so I want to give that time to breathe before assessing raw power.

Thanks again for your thoughts, keep on Dingin' ^^


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EnderDDT

Senior Member

10-14-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
On paper, Heimer's sustained DPS with RQ is far higher than live and he can opt to have a pretty big pile of burst if he can achieve it. The goal is that whether he reaches those heights is up to how he and his opponents play--the skill ceiling is higher and the skill floor is lower.

If it's too hard or too easy to achieve those heights, balance will step in, but PBE is for bugfixing/gameplay first--it's tricky to get hard balance data out of an unranked environment. I'll be watching/adjusting balance as much as I can, but I can't go crazy without some actual evidence.

It's also worth mentioning: With changes this vast, any sufficiently large pool of players will reveal pie slices of all opinion types. Only time and actual hard data will tell, but I definitely expect to hear that he's OP, UP, perfect, and everything in between. The only thing I am 100% convinced about is that our internal assessment of his balance will be proven wrong by the players. As strategies evolve, the power level of Heimer in games will change, making it impossible to just "figure it out" ahead of time because it is a moving target.

The only way to solve the puzzle for a champ this complex is to get more data, in my opinion ^^


What type of evidence are you looking for in terms of balancing the character according to the current levels of power in the game? I can give you pretty much whatever data you might need in order to get him balanced, but I need to know what you are looking for.

Also, I'm looking forward to hearing when the fix for the turret defenses have gone though, hopefully that will help make things better.


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20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-14-2013

Quote:
Ranik Ortega:
As I said before making him rely entirely on his ult for sustained damage is an iffy prospect in my opinion as he's not a character given to clutch plays as much as sustained effect and field control.

I suppose that's the problem with balance. It's fairly obvious that the changes will still leave him not entirely competitive in higher ranks but by how much the numbers need to change we don't know yet.

Have to wait till live I suppose.


Hehe, I should also say that 3 of his new turrets outdamage his 2 old ones in most use cases ^^

The old aspd bonus on placement is analogous to RQ on someone's face, in my opinion--they both mainly arise as a response to being dove.

And good catch on the "clutch plays" thing, that's actually something I very much wanted to give Heimer with this rework. I feel strongly that he should have the ability to have everyone recognize how awesome he is by doing sick stuff with his ult--it's quite hard to "get" why Heimer players play him if you're not already a Heimer player. Sick plays to watch and oooo and aaaa over go a long way toward promoting general Heimerdinger appreciation.


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20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-14-2013

Quote:
EnderDDT:
What type of evidence are you looking for in terms of balancing the character according to the current levels of power in the game? I can give you pretty much whatever data you might need in order to get him balanced, but I need to know what you are looking for.

Also, I'm looking forward to hearing when the fix for the turret defenses have gone though, hopefully that will help make things better.


I appreciate the offer, and I certainly will be adjusting his balance as he cooks in PBE. That said, nothing quite beats the crazy huge mountains of data we get from him being released to live--great matchmaking, huge player pool, competitive environment, etc xD


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AFuzzyMuffin

Senior Member

10-14-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
Hehe, I should also say that 3 of his new turrets outdamage his 2 old ones in most use cases ^^

The old aspd bonus on placement is analogous to RQ on someone's face, in my opinion--they both mainly arise as a response to being dove.

And good catch on the "clutch plays" thing, that's actually something I very much wanted to give Heimer with this rework. I feel strongly that he should have the ability to have everyone recognize how awesome he is by doing sick stuff with his ult--it's quite hard to "get" why Heimer players play him if you're not already a Heimer player. Sick plays to watch and oooo and aaaa over go a long way toward promoting general Heimerdinger appreciation.


I hate to derail this thread, but are you by any chance working on the Ahri changes at all? You seem alot more vocal with your feedback and responding to the posts in this thread.


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Baval

Senior Member

10-14-2013

how about a passive that reestablishes his pushing role?

"LW-270 Decontructor: When attacking an enemy structure, Heimer throws the other wrench (he currently never does), dealing x% of his AP as bonus damage"