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Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

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Quintessence

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Aerophobia:
grenades and auto attacks set targets for turrets to use their beams.


I don't even auto attack or use grenade and it fires off its load at one minion.


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ilolzatpiranhas

Senior Member

10-11-2013

20thcenturyfaux you must have been destined by holy God himself to do this rework lol jk but for real its beast


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Aerophobia:
A lot of what he said is what i was saying earlier in the thread. I liked having the blind on my grenade. i liked the CDR on my ult. And i've ALWAYS hated how slow i feel.

And he even points out what i thought was obvious but seems to have eluded riot for 3 years which is that heimer was never very annoying to lane against early game in the first place. He can't roam because his crappy movespeed and the way his kit is just in general. You don't get killed by heimer unless you let heimer kill you. It sounds stupid but thats exactly how it goes. You're going to be fine unless you walk right into him and just stand around letting his turrets hit you a bunch and let him drop his abilities on you.

i wanted to ask faux about some movement speed stuff but i was already asking about his passive and i figured id hash that out in here before i started asking about other stuff.


Funny though that he says that and then the vid shows Heimer killing people all over the place with offensive plays and dives with his new kit. No longer requiring enemies to walk into him. Also, his movespeed was buffed to 335, so he's not as slow as he has been. The blind definitely is a loss, but arguably it did make him a bit unfair vs melee champs who have to dive you to duel you anyway... it became an auto-hit against them, on top of all the other things about his kit that just punish being close to him in general.

Edit: Also, he was sort of wrong about the rockets doing less damage, at least single target, because multiple rockets hit enemies... if you can get the enemy with 3 which seems like it would be easy and common, you are doing about the same as his old ones, with 5, you get about 325 + (0.8*AP) which is nothing to sneeze at.


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Boyahda

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Evolnemesis:
Funny though that he says that and then the vid shows Heimer killing people all over the place with offensive plays and dives with his new kit. No longer requiring enemies to walk into him. Also, his movespeed was buffed to 335, so he's not as slow as he has been. The blind definitely is a loss, but arguably it did make him a bit unfair vs melee champs who have to dive you to duel you anyway... it became an auto-hit against them, on top of all the other things about his kit that just punish being close to him in general.


Well to be fair, he was playing with his viewers on the PBE and not players in his elo (Diamond 1). But yes, the movement speed buff is very much welcomed.


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Boyahda:
Well to be fair, he was playing with his viewers on the PBE and not players in his elo (Diamond 1). But yes, the movement speed buff is very much welcomed.


also he said the new grenade was slower which is definitely not the case.. it's a lot easier to hit with by far than his old one. Then again, when he was playing him after those first impressions on his kit, he seemed to be warming up to the it... "Interesting..."


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Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Evolnemesis:
Funny though that he says that and then the vid shows Heimer killing people all over the place with offensive plays and dives with his new kit.

2 of mentioned kills are exactly what he was referring to when he said something like "you dont get killed by heimerdinger unless you let him kill you". vi just walked around next to his turret and just let herself get killed basically. I'm sure its worth mentioning that hes a diamond 1 player among a player base that is generally lower skill level than the live game playerbase. I also don't remember anything crazy or spectacular about said kills that he actually did get. He got jumped on by fiora and killed and the only time he used his ult to try and pick up a kill xerath just walked out of range of his rockets (the only ranged thing he can use to RELIABLY pick up a kill). His problems still remain, his mobility and his lack of kill potential. walk out of his turret range and you wont be dying today. its as simple as that.


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Aerophobia:
2 of mentioned kills are exactly what he was referring to when he said something like "you dont get killed by heimerdinger unless you let him kill you". vi just walked around next to his turret and just let herself get killed basically. I'm sure its worth mentioning that hes a diamond 1 player among a player base that is generally lower skill level than the live game playerbase. I also don't remember anything crazy or spectacular about said kills that he actually did get. He got jumped on by fiora and killed and the only time he used his ult to try and pick up a kill xerath just walked out of range of his rockets (the only ranged thing he can use to RELIABLY pick up a kill). His problems still remain, his mobility and his lack of kill potential. walk out of his turret range and you wont be dying today. its as simple as that.

I agree that is true about his current kit, but only one or 2 of the kills on that video that walked into his turrets... all the rest involved him actually making plays and chasing more than kiting. His mobility is as good as many mages now, instead of worse than most. He's not an assassin, they aren't going to give him a blink.. they increased his movespeed. What's bad about that? Also, I disagree about lack of kill potential, considering his stun is a lot easier to hit with, he has a stronger slow with a short cooldown that is not hard to hit with, making his attacks harder to dodge, and his turrets, which he can replace more, harder to get away from, and then he has very large amounts of potential burst and AP scaling compared to his old kit. His ult actually adds large amounts of damage or utility too, instead of just its current weak slow every 60-90 seconds that you can't aim or even guarantee anyone will get hit with at all.


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ilolzatpiranhas

Senior Member

10-11-2013

ok faux u want a passive with low power low attention and awesome and u said helps heimer when he is losing..... ok so heimer dropping below 50% health heimer automatically drops a device that cant be moved(not even by heimer and cant be destroyed) that makes a field. inside the field heimers movespeed and his attacks(including his turrets) faster while everything else is slower (make the slow not very potent at all just enough that enemy skill shots can be dodged a lil easier and heimer can kite people who are near him lets say like between 5 and 15% slow) this would allow heimer to control his area better turning a bad situation into a good one. if heimer leaves the devices field it can shut off if neccasary and the cooldown can be five minutes or so. (the device shouldn't last more then 10 to 15 seconds) this would greatly benefit his team in teamfights with a frozen heart type effect but a little better. ---I don't think that would be real op just give him a small edge he can dodge u easier but u cant dodge him so easily (this would make the turrets powershot more spot on when u really need it)

(ps. even against ranged people that can auto attack you outside of the devices radius will still have to watch out cause your nade and turrets powershot speed will still be buff and with the movespeed buff you will still be able to dodge skillshots)


-EDIT- to be more specific when I said that it would slow or speed up attacks(as well as movement speed) I also ment projectile movement speed.

it should not slow down or speed up projectiles that travel through it, it should only affect things that originate inside the field itself.


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Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Evolnemesis:
only one or 2 of the kills on that video that walked into his turrets... all the rest involved him actually making plays and chasing more than kiting. His mobility is as good as many mages now, instead of worse than most. He's not an assassin, they aren't going to give him a blink.. they increased his movespeed. What's bad about that? Also, I disagree about lack of kill potential, considering his stun is a lot easier to hit with, he has a stronger slow with a short cooldown that is not hard to hit with, making his attacks harder to dodge, and his turrets, which he can replace more, harder to get away from, and then he has very large amounts of potential burst and AP scaling compared to his old kit. His ult actually adds large amounts of damage or utility too, instead of just its current weak slow that you can't aim or even guarantee anyone will get hit with, once every 60-90 seconds.

Really? a 1.25 second stun is kill potential? With WHAT to follow it up? You hit the stun, you walk up closer, hit your rockets and drop your turret and then by that time the stun is over and he can either just walk away, kill you which depends on who that champ is for this option (because you have terrible base stats still, no gap closer, no movespeed, no movement ability of any kind and all of your stuff is on CD for the next 10 seconds or so) or or or he walks into you and you kite him around and survive long enough for your turret to kill him. The last option being the situation that was specifically mentioned before which is that you don't get killed by heimer unless you just let him kill you.
  • What do you do about xerath who outranges everything you have and has wave clear?
  • what do you do about swain who will just facetank everything you have and do more sustained damage than you all while healing. AND whos AA's will hit you like a truck now since his e will be on you and your grenade no longer blinds.
  • What do you do about lux who will destroy your turrets in one E+AA and will outburst you, have more kill potential on you.
  • What do you do about the AD ASSASSINS that all get played mid lane now without your blind.
The list goes on and on and on.


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Aerophobia:
Really? a 1.25 second stun is kill potential? With WHAT to follow it up? You hit the stun, you walk up closer, hit your rockets and drop your turret and then by that time the stun is over and he can either just walk away, kill you which depends on who that champ is for this option (because you have terrible base stats still, no gap closer, no movespeed, no movement ability of any kind and all of your stuff is on CD for the next 10 seconds or so) or or or he walks into you and you kite him around and survive long enough for your turret to kill him. The last option being the situation that was specifically mentioned before which is that you don't get killed by heimer unless you just let him kill you.

What do you do about xerath who outranges everything you have and has wave clear?
what do you do about swain who will just facetank everything you have and do more sustained damage than you all while healing. AND whos AA's will hit you like a truck now since his e will be on you and your grenade no longer blinds.
What do you do about lux who will destroy your turrets in one E+AA and will outburst you, have more kill potential on you.
What do you do about the AD ASSASSINS that all get played mid lane now without your blind.
The list goes on and on and on.


and, other than the blind, that's worse than his current kit how? I still see a lot more damage and utility.

you stun someone then ult and hit them with rockets, that's already a TON more damage than he was ever able to do before. if you have any turrets around, they can shoot their lasers and hit the enemy with those too, which becomes comparable to the best burst any other champ has right now. and you have time during that to also walk up and place a new turret close to them.

WIth more damage than his current kit on everything about him but his grenade, and the ability to have 3 turrets out at level 1, it's gonna be hard for swain to just facetank him anymore. lux's burst potential is actually less than his new kit has, and he doesn't care as much when she destroys a turret because he can replace them more often and has 2 more. Xerath has always been a pain in the ass for him, but he has a better chance to chase him down with his new kit because he actually has an excellent usable slow now rather than a VERY conditional one on a long cooldown that requires enemies to walk into it... Sitting and trying to be passive against xerath just gets him poked down still, because xerath will beat any champ that tries that. Now he actually has better options.