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Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

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IrontailPikachu

Member

10-22-2013

why don't we just pull a master yi and say that the lower you or an allies health is the better the heal is because the techmaturgical bots work harder. (ex- im at 75%health I get some ok regeneration but my lane partner is at 5%health so they heal at a much faster rate than me)

- and for those of you who want recognition just have really weak looking healthpot particles that ramp up and get more sporadic the lower you or an allies health drops so its noticable


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JollyAmoeba

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
McPapples:
Indeed, there will always be situations where you want to change what the mechanics are doing to benefit you. Say in you're example if you'd like for the Jungler to split some of the shield then you would have to position early enough. But the fact is you don't have to. A shield on you is better than a shield on none so there is still benefit.

This I believe will be what separates a good Heimerdinger player from a great Heimerdinger player, the little positioning nuances.

But again, you normally don't have to worry about it, it just happens. The way I read your Ammo System, Heimerdinger (or other allies) have to grab the ammo kits (similar to Zac). That is undoubtedly more work for the individual because for optimal gain they must keep track of every kit and grab it.

As for the power comment, that is yet to be determined. We're talking small shields based on a laser proc. Lasers fire roughly every 10 seconds or so and the enemy can DODGE it. There is a significant amount of counterplay there. If you are melee, you wait for laser proc then go all in on Heim, if you are ranged you poke him down then go for the kill and at all times watching out for the laser which is standard. It is true that the your idea provides counterplay but I believe Heimer just keeping track of it would be too much.

Things I have considered for the laser proc:
1. Flat scaling shield on laser hit.
2. Shields scale off laser damage (lower percent on monsters/minions or just champions).
3. Lower actual shield but longer duration that can stack.
4. Multiple enemy hits (if not based on damage) multiply the effect.

Again, let it be known that Heimer is intended to defend his area so I believe this passive will allow him to do this without being overpowered. There is counterplay potential. Shields can be minimal if needed. But Heimer is known to counter the enemy champs who need to engage him in close quarters if they cant kill him insta. I believe 20thCenturyFaux implemented different scaling magic and armor resist on the turrets to account for this.


I don't think we should be thinking about ideas that take power away from Heimer. His current passive IS GREAT. While you can't always appreciate it, it is indeed a good passive. Adding counter play is simply taking away from Heimer and lowering his overall power level. If you want to make shields that are just in fact better than his current regen, than adding power like that probably isn't good either.


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GGA Jeremiah

Member

10-22-2013

They are changing the rules for being able to try the PBE. I am going to try and get in just to try Heimer, that is how much I love him. I want to see if my opinion that too much of his power is weighted in his ULT is right or not.


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McPapples

Junior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
JollyAmoeba:
I don't think we should be thinking about ideas that take power away from Heimer. His current passive IS GREAT. While you can't always appreciate it, it is indeed a good passive. Adding counter play is simply taking away from Heimer and lowering his overall power level. If you want to make shields that are just in fact better than his current regen, than adding power like that probably isn't good either.


Actually, I agree with you. I'm not trying to take away or add in more power. I think his passive is good but it does not "feel" good as most have mentioned. Adding counter play to his passive by enabling it on laser hits would allow for the shield to be better than say if there was no counter play option. So yeah the laser can be dodged and the balance of the shield on hit would be adjusted to account for this. Proper positioning/skill usage by the Heimer will allow for laser hits on enemy champion.

Like has been mentioned by developers: allowing the opportunity for counter play is GOOD. Makes gameplay much more interesting and rewarding. So really its not about taking power away but making Heimer passive "feel" better while promoting more depth to gameplay. As opposed to stand near me and get hp regen.

tl;dr Keep overall power level of current passive. Passive proc on laser hit allows counterplay. Potential for counterplay leads to satisfying game experience.


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GGA Jeremiah

Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
McPapples:
Actually, I agree with you. I'm not trying to take away or add in more power. I think his passive is good but it does not "feel" good as most have mentioned.


It actually does feel good for me really early into the game. I usually start Heimer mid with 2 faerie charms (which also builds towards Athene's) and health pots. This gives me good mana regen for replacing turrets (as long as I keep them far back and not have to replace them too often) and his passive is good health regen.

I get wonderful farm, and even against someone powerful like Orianna, sometimes I don't even have to back once till like level 9 and I have a ton of gold to spend.


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JollyAmoeba

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
GGA Jeremiah:
It actually does feel good for me really early into the game. I usually start Heimer mid with 2 faerie charms (which also builds towards Athene's) and health pots. This gives me good mana regen for replacing turrets (as long as I keep them far back and not have to replace them too often) and his passive is good health regen.

I get wonderful farm, and even against someone powerful like Orianna, sometimes I don't even have to back once till like level 9 and I have a ton of gold to spend.


Soon as you do get that PBE account you'll know that his turrets really don't cost mana anymore =p 20 to replace is nothing.


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JollyAmoeba

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
McPapples:
Actually, I agree with you. I'm not trying to take away or add in more power. I think his passive is good but it does not "feel" good as most have mentioned. Adding counter play to his passive by enabling it on laser hits would allow for the shield to be better than say if there was no counter play option. So yeah the laser can be dodged and the balance of the shield on hit would be adjusted to account for this. Proper positioning/skill usage by the Heimer will allow for laser hits on enemy champion.

Like has been mentioned by developers: allowing the opportunity for counter play is GOOD. Makes gameplay much more interesting and rewarding. So really its not about taking power away but making Heimer passive "feel" better while promoting more depth to gameplay. As opposed to stand near me and get hp regen.

tl;dr Keep overall power level of current passive. Passive proc on laser hit allows counterplay. Potential for counterplay leads to satisfying game experience.


I just think that their is enough counter play in the rest of his kit so that more doesn't need to be added. Also, tying his passive to another skill is just quite the fundamental change to it, makes it useless when that skill isn't available or on CD. Besides I'd probally go for some flashy play thinking I'm about to get a shield only for them to sidestep it and screw me Xd

I do like trying to think of ideas that make his passive feel better but not having a passive potentially (if you choose not to rank up turrets, sounds odd but possible) doesn't seem optimal.


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McPapples

Junior Member

10-22-2013

Personally, I am okay with keeping the current passive. I know it works even if it is so subtle BUT since they are explicitly asking for new passive ideas that they will potentially entertain I threw in my two cents.

I think it will provide a better Heimer experience if done right.


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JollyAmoeba

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Yea throwing out ideas is always a good thing Never know what ideas could be sparked from yours


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Elmanbeastio

Senior Member

10-22-2013

@20thCentureFaux, I had 3 issues with Heimer. Sorry if this was brought up already.

1) Are turret kit cooldown updating properly? They should update instantly when you buy cdr, but that doesnt seem to always be the case. I havent pinpointed what makes the tooltip update but it seems to be when you level the skill the next time, it updates the tooltip including the cdr.

2) Why isnt the kit cooldown a white number in the tooltip like on live for other spells. Zyra seeds, Teemo shrooms and Corki ammo come to mind.

3) For the passive, what If the passive was tied to Heimer's own HP5. That way, buying things like Warmogg's for example, would make the passive scale. I think this meets all the requirements.