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Xerath, the Magus Ascendant Rework on PBE Today!

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IS1fa8992fb18aa9b5291e6

Member

10-18-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
Let's discuss the options here:
  1. Stop the rework - This is off the table
  2. Change the rework dramatically - We are beyond the point of doing this. Art is almost finished.
  3. Make focused polish adjustments to make sure the Xerath experience is as rich and balancable as possible - This is where we're at

If you want to make suggestions in this final space, we can talk about it. If you disagree with the goal of the rework or the major abilities, we're past the point where that's productive.



Xelnath,

do you know how frustrating it can be to have no answers on relevant questions,
when you take so much time to answer to the frustation that Crownface express ?

I was, and i'm not the only one, like him... but I have understand that we were in the 3rd case :
Polish the PBE kit you will release (and that will not deeply change)

So as I ask before, in fews words :

- Can we have a way to cancel the Q charging? (to keep manacost and stop beeing slowed without waiting a cast time, when a fast reaction is needed )

- Why a sniper Ultimate and not a shellfire one ? can you let us know what kind of Shellfire R we may have if we supposed a ~1500/1800 range, with no vision, some delay cast ... like the Live Xerath R is.

- Is Lux Broken too ? cause the arguments applied to tunes Xerath Kit doesnt work on her


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Volgust

Senior Member

10-18-2013

Quote:
BLACKDEATH586:
For everyone opposed to this xerath rework lets start a petition!!
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/do-not-change-xerath/


I'm not against him getting a rework. Mind you, I was quite happy, initially then I popped into the forums to see deeper what was going on and realized that they were ruining him...and people say Morello ruins champs :/ I've posted, many a time what minor changes can be made without destroying the schedule of the rework team and it falls upon deaf ears except for 1 post. Yet that reply was just asking me to test him out on PBE and...I couldn't believe just how horrible his W and E were.

Quote:
crims0nangel:
He is now outclassed by pretty much every other mage in the game and is no longer a viable option except for bot play. His kit is way too slow and clunky and he gets demolished by just about every champion in the game with this remake.


As I've stated

and restated

and said time and again... I even put up a damn list of some examples that outclass him, worse yet, they're typical mages you see just about every day (ranked or otherwise).

Quote:
I've been mentioning it in every post. It's entirely unfair on us that W has only the 'sweet spot' that now does any actual damage while others run around with their AoE either having longer range (Lux 1,000 + Slow until detonation, Gragas 1,100 with massive explosion radius+atkspd debuff) while what do we get? "Hit point center for the actual intention of the skill to be pulled off or you're fked


In an older post:

Quote:

But people, please, do tell me if you agree:

E: No pathing on the ground, goes through minions (if it does damage or not, not big deal). Slow it down to 'normal' amounts (Ahri E, Lux Q). Then if Riot God deems it worthy, perhaps scaling/lvl so it goes 1/.1/.2/.3/.4/.5

This means that people don't just go "Okay, skill ranks QWE R when possible" they say "Hmm, more stuns/duration for better harass or more AoE for better waveclear/damage?" if your team/jungler is a Maokai for example, or a Vi. Max QW, if it's something like a Zed or a Trynda, max QE

If needs be, even go back to the whole 'Proc for stun' thing. This adds more counter-play to it via avoiding his other abilities. Does he go predictable with Q charge-up/shoot or lose damage with an AoE W? Though, if it does go with the proc rule, I'd say to normalize it with others, that it has an explosion/secondary effect.

Mostly as every other proc'd effect has something to it (Cough-Le Blanc WQRW burst coughcoughcough, Akali Q->anything, Lux passive->AA)

Doesn't have to be big but can be countered by zhonya/avoiding abilities and can still be useful!


W: Just normalize the damage for the love of the gods. Just adjust it so that it's a nice little thing (again, like Veigar's W mechanically, 100% Ap after 1.25+AoE stun? hurr) I can go on to say just how many other abilities have long range, high AP with the same damage coming regardless of how little of you is caught in it.
  • Veigar W (as mentioned) 100%AP (No additional effects but has massive AoE stun to ensure landing)
  • Lux E 60%AP + Passive + Slow (20-36% depending on rank until exploded)
  • Gragas Q 90%AP + AtkSpd Debuff (20-40% depending on rank after detonation)
  • Brand W 60%AP + 8%Max hp (passive) (OR 75% if passive already on them + 8%Max HP)
  • Fizz ult (Applicable?) 100% AP + AoE + Slow

So please, people, quote this, direct redpost attention to this. We want Xerath to be just as good as these! Don't let them nerf him to the ground for the love of god at least quote the above part!


Have any of the reds tested playing against a lux? A gragas? Even if against eachother.
Have the reds tested it against high-mobility assassins? Pre-6 you may not die but post 6 on this kit you have no way of stopping them once they attack you. If they have half a brain and attack you during a minion wave, what can your E do? Your only method of peel? Nothing really. All it can do now is just (hopefully) interrupt a katarina ult.


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Mirage Night

Senior Member

10-18-2013

Any thoughts of moding the passive to be MR Shred rather then straight pen? Also making it ramp up. It would intresting to make him like a seige weapon, crushng down the fortification around the target.

It would be itresting that the shred from basic spells applied would be less the the shred on his ultimate.

Just like a true artillery would bust through the armour of a tank to allow smaller caliber fire to punch through.


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Xelnath

Recruiter

10-18-2013

Quote:
Volgust:
I'm not against him getting a rework. Mind you, I was quite happy, initially then I popped into the forums to see deeper what was going on and realized that they were ruining him...and people say Morello ruins champs :/ I've posted, many a time what minor changes can be made without destroying the schedule of the rework team and it falls upon deaf ears except for 1 post. Yet that reply was just asking me to test him out on PBE and...I couldn't believe just how horrible his W and E were.

Have any of the reds tested playing against a lux? A gragas? Even if against eachother.
Have the reds tested it against high-mobility assassins? Pre-6 you may not die but post 6 on this kit you have no way of stopping them once they attack you. If they have half a brain and attack you during a minion wave, what can your E do? Your only method of peel? Nothing really. All it can do now is just (hopefully) interrupt a katarina ult.


Lux should be a tough lane. Lux is about landing a Q, then blowing up the target. Well timed Xerath Q should penetrate her shields.

Gragas will pretty much 100% of the time beat Xerath. Gragas is a bruiser with an AP aoe nuke and a reverse Oriana ult. Very tough to beat. Similarly, Talon, Zed, Akali will all wreck a Xerath. That's appropriate.


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IS1fa8992fb18aa9b5291e6

Member

10-18-2013

@Xelnath

I'm so invisible to you >_____________________<


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Pieter

Junior Member

10-18-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
Lux should be a tough lane. Lux is about landing a Q, then blowing up the target. Well timed Xerath Q should penetrate her shields.

Gragas will pretty much 100% of the time beat Xerath. Gragas is a bruiser with an AP aoe nuke and a reverse Oriana ult. Very tough to beat. Similarly, Talon, Zed, Akali will all wreck a Xerath. That's appropriate.


Live Xerath does not lose to a Talon or Akali (In Diamond), can't speak to PBE xerath as I've not had those match ups. Considering how the rest of the champion has shaped up, I'm not so sure he hasn't become more vulnerable there without gaining anything in return.

Actually, what would you consider to be a strong lane favoring Xerath at this point? Excluding ryze, since he's just not a midlaner anymore at all. What is Xerath's draw over a lux now?


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IS1fa8992fb18aa9b5291e6

Member

10-18-2013

Quote:
Pieter:
Live Xerath does not lose to a Talon or Akali (In Diamond), can't speak to PBE xerath as I've not had those match ups. Considering how the rest of the champion has shaped up, I'm not so sure he hasn't become more vulnerable there without gaining anything in return.


That's what Xelnath said : Talon & Akali will all wreck a Xerath... Because that's fair !
An assassin must kill a Xerath if he can reach him


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Bsul

Member

10-18-2013

I will once make another post because Xelnath seems to be dodging the massive amount of replies in here, by simply using this place as a chatbox between him and a Crown.

I am sorry that I had to put it like that but Id very much like some light on some matters

a)

U said Xerath wants Less spells and more dmg per spell.

yet u changed the kit from 2 skill shots and 1 target skill to 4 skill shots

Not only that but u also increased the number of barriages. Isnt this EXACTLY the opposite of what you said first?

b)
Xerath,s Viabiltiy and gameplay.

As skill as one may be, and being the smart player than I am sure you are, I am pretty sure that you must be familiar with the concept that skillshots carry certain amount of risk to them, particularly speaking champs than can miss their spells tend me on a lower tier overall, UNLESS they are fit for close combat. However you just created a champ with a 4 skill shot and took away not only his Former Tankyness, and the Speed from the W that I was so font off, but u basically left me with only skillshots to protect myself if they get close to me. and with the current kit ill be fighting with normal spells at a closer to speed to fire my W and E.

A champ that comes to mid right now is Lux with a similar slow and stun which are both skillshots, the difference is that the Slow from Lux ZONES while ours simply bursts. Also we do not have the shield. U said Xerath lackd mobility but yet now it seems that id be more dfenseless in the event that a shaco or a jax gankd up on me, to the contrary mage chains ult escape that i could pull off in panic.

Dont you think that having him rely on 4 skillshots may prove a handicap in competivive gameplay and force the pick towards Champs that can do the same but without the luck factor?

c) Laning

I dont have a PBE account, I wish I had one but my laning phase atm with xerath is basically set using skillfull E-Q combos, key point being the surprise element and the KNOWDLEDGE i can sit in a place and wait for the best moment to snipe when an enemy champ tries to finish a minion.

The current Q feels like adowngrade for this, More over his basic Range being nerfed means that Lux orianna and Ahri can easily outrange me and do a better trade on me.

d)
Balance.
Good Old Xerath can be a beast, I understand your position, when xerath does good he can carry 10-1-10 and at that point he can easily dissapear a fullteam from a fog position. Yet xerath is never used in rankeds.
The reason being that in order to get that amount of power one is trading a lot of utility and in a teamplay at a competitive lvl, utility is what helps you catch up on a game from behind doing great plays with your team. Xerath is not suited for this job of helping a team catch up, Also when in a EVEN game he needs to set up a good positioning beforehand, so in a good team vs team the other team will actively avoid bottenecks or jungle fights thus negating Xerath playstyle.

The fact that Xerath has such extreme gameplay of high risk/high reward is what calls for the rework.
However what you did right now what the following.

A) you decided that it was not realistic to keep xerath competitive on 3 spells without giving us broken ratios, therefore eliminated that spell.

I respect that, had you started with that information I am sure you would have gotten much more respectful feed back.

I do not agree it was the only path, Id have accepted other possible reworks.

B) you Added a slow ala lux/orianna and a stun like lux

this spells have a problem of realiability since we have no escape mechanism, even more now that you decided to decrease the size of the proyectile making effectively harder for us to land a close distance during a retreat.

c) you increased the number of barriages. Remember that the number of barriages is a reason of the high AP ratio on our ult. I believe that most players here would be happier to be on 3 or 2 charges instead of 4 if they were to hit extra hard, Especially now that we wont be using them to trigger stuns.


Since you asked for constructive feedback I will give you some Ideas.




Q Put back into the Old minimum range, decrease max range by 200, give a speed buff for 1-3 seconds depending on the time of charge up.


W I am yet to see this skill but w/e happens just make sure it is a Reliable slow as a escape mechanism, just like Luxs slow either bigger Aoe or less delay casting time

E either Target Cast slow that stuns on spell hit like mage chains of bigger projectile speed at melee point, which gets smaller the longer it travels.

R

Ascended form.

Allows us to enter Ascended form for 100 mana.

During ascended forms we can Cast all of our spells with a +400 range buff and cast Q at max range automatically without charge ups.

when in ascended form we can also use Arcane barrages

To cast an arcane Barrage consumes an arcane barrage counter and costs X amount of mana

Arcange barrage counters are generated every 15 seconds every spell that hits an enemy champion reduces the cd by 2 seconds.

u are free to mess up with our dmgs I dont care but why cant we have an ultimate thats passive like jayce and nidaless and elise and at the same time has an active skill??

the likes of Diana, akali and katarina have much more potential in that Area so i dont think u could consider this xerath to be broken. and as a guy here said, Is not good to force us to use all our 4 shots , sometimes we dont need them


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BLACKDEATH586

Junior Member

10-18-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
Lux should be a tough lane. Lux is about landing a Q, then blowing up the target. Well timed Xerath Q should penetrate her shields.

Gragas will pretty much 100% of the time beat Xerath. Gragas is a bruiser with an AP aoe nuke and a reverse Oriana ult. Very tough to beat. Similarly, Talon, Zed, Akali will all wreck a Xerath. That's appropriate.

Both talon and akali were easy to beat with live xerath if you played properly. Both are easily zoned and poked till you get them to the sweet spot where you can then ult. Reworked xerath is slow and clunky none of his moves synergize together he has a rip off of a morgana dark bind instead of the unique stun that he used to posses. He has been nerfed in just about ever sense of the word.


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Vandite

Senior Member

10-18-2013

''all the popular mages wreck xerath'' So sad but true. but if he survives that lane oh baby