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Xerath, the Magus Ascendant Rework on PBE Today!

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Volgust

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Valenten:
in all honesty Xeraths old passive didnt help against ad casters before cause early game you didnt have enough ap for it to be effective and late game they had to much pen for your passive to be really useful.


My bad, I should have specified that I was talking about his E, I wrote this 10 min after I woke up so excuse me on that.

Obviously, his current passive doesn't work against AP mages, so I was probably assuming people would know I was talking about his E, again, my bad on that.

Quote:
plus he is all skill shots so mobile champs have always been a challenge for him but he can deal with them just as well as any other none mobile champ.


Yes, they have been but the main reason why he had a chance against high-mobility champs is that his W+E normally let him just mark them with Q generally being long enough range to be a threat as they either try to run away or he makes use of the speed boost to run himself, bait out their gapcloser and cast Q before the mark wears off.

That's allowing him to perform some counter-play around the mechanic that counters him so hard, yet now, it's all going to be but a spark of previous, good memories.

Quote:
Xeraths whole thing is he should be able to destroy you from a good distance which he can now with these changes. he has fairly long range for his regular abilities and then super long range for his ult. I have never really had a hard time against ahris and the likes of her with Xerath but i know his ins and outs on live.


To tackle the first part;

I agree entirely. I'd like to see the W just be turned into a flat, normalized damage ability rather than that pesky 'sweet spot' that honestly is going to have a lot of getting used to and in all seriousness, be just bad to use. As the team would have to CC first unless someone's silly enough to engage you on clear wave, that no one would do unless they could burst you.

His ult is a very nice one, I have to agree with how it's being done but what's grinding my gears is just how vulnerable I'm going to feel early game. A Lux would be able to out-poke him early-game thanks to how damn fast her E is, along with the slow it provides. Then combined with a 2 second, non-pathed (like Jinx E, Xerath current E) snare she just brings more utility to the table. While certainly, his ult is better if they aren't crammed together, hers is on a 43 sec cooldown(Anyone that doesn't buy grail+morello idk what you're doing) that means that she'll have just about 2 times the ult-usability than you do at level 16. Meaning, on base damage alone,

1,000 (Or if passive procced on both: 1,380) damage @ Lux ultx2
MAX SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE: 1000 @ Xerath ult

So that means, she would have a much larger area, hyper-speed burst (Q->E->R->E) doing all her damage in a tiny time-window only allowing another AP smart enough to get zhonyas, to avoid instant-death.


So really, Xerath is just being out-classed here, in total damage, he would be able to out-do her but due to short cast times on all Lux's abilities and thus, the additional mobility, shorter cooldowns and generally, greater utility she provides would benefit most teams a lot more. Be it that they require poke, burst or utility, she provides them all!

Xerath provides Poke and extended burst. Yet the charge-up on Q allows it to be easily avoidable/counterable, the tiny 'sweet spot' range on W disallows it to be used to it's full potential and the E has turned into "Always rank last" now.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Xerath's current passive reads badly. It honestly *looks* like "Xerath has these issues - let's just fix them all in his passive". The effects aren't even thematically related, like Akali or Vladimir. IMHO - put the magic penetration somewhere else and go with the mana refund. OR make them related.

"Xerath's mastery of the arcane grants him bonus magic penetration based on his current mana (either 1% of his current mana, or 0.1/0.2/0.3% for every 1% of his current mana). Every 10 seconds, Xerath's next attack siphons magical energies from his target - replenishing Z% of his maximum/base mana (tripled against champions)."

It's important to make it look/feel like the mana's coming from his target even if it doesn't literally reduce their mana (maybe add a Transfusion-style particle effect that flies back to Xerath and the mana is restored when it hits). Essentially, Xerath is strongest at full mana and has a means to replenish his mana - a thematic link between the two effects. It's also a neat idea for someone who's essentially a mana elemental to scale with current mana.


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wobs23

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Have you considered giving some of the Xerath players in the survey and who have posted here PBE accounts? I personally can use my brothers account to play the new Xerath but, I know it must be frustrating for some to see there favorite champion getting remade and being powerless to provide feedback on the new changes, just a thought.

Also, I know I've said this like 3 times now but, and option to switch between Q triggering on second press or on click would be nice. I personally would like it only go launch on click but, I know some other people will disagree. I don't know how it would be implemented but and option to switch between them would be amazing. Finally, I think you guys are doing an excellent job so far, I love the communication with the community and how much time and effort you are putting into Xerath's remake. Best of luck


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MelloRed

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Passive: Defiantly keep the spell pen. Kill the AP ratio's and base damage if needed, but keep the pen. I also quite like forcing him to AA a minion for mana. That provides nice counter play. Maybe even shorten his AA range a touch.

Q: Pretty good as is.

W: IMO it's a little too feast or famine with the bulls-eye. So i'd shift slightly more power to the outer ring. Say... 20% slow, and 50% bonus damage for center. Otherwise, the brief mega-slow with quick decay does make it clear you where hit.

E: I defiantly like the slower cast + faster missile. Before i only ever used it as a defensive measure, when someone rushed me. Now, I can use it as a long range tool. It also explifies his weakness, and gives katarina an extra blade from her ult, or zed an extra AA, and keeps a bit of his WEW feel.

I'm unsure about the range = stun length thing.
Still prefered "Mage Chains" however. And somehow the orb particle doesn't seem to fit his kit.

R: Xerath should reveal himself to the enemies and stay revealed the whole time. More shots, slower shots, same total damage, and lower cooldown. It will be hard to hit any kind of moving target. Also, it should look like the yamato cannon from star craft.


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Pieter

Junior Member

10-17-2013

Hitting E at range is quite impossible against better players - it really feels about is easy as Jinx's to dodge. All it does now is make ganks even worse for the opposing midlaner, as if there's any form of CC coming out of my jungler, we can lock down that midlaner to death really easily from its max range.

I had played against an Irelia and a Vi, and with the .5 second minimum stun it felt like I basically had no tools whatsoever to survive/delay against them at all. (Is this more because Irelia's passive remains an incredible problem? Maybe.

Quote:
ZenonTheStoic:

-- THOUGHTS: This iteration should make it clear that the ulti is less about the AoE damage and more about hitting that one high value target. May need to adjust AoE size further down to get this point across. I don’t want players to spend time thinking about “do I use this to AoE a bunch of dudes or do I snipe down Ashe?” You always snipe down the Ashe.


Why? It goes counter to the concept of artillery to make this basically a single target spell, and doesn't feel as satisfying when you consider the overall concept of an artillery champion. In addition, it's still feels like the opponent has no way of dodging - if it misses it's because I messed up aiming, not because the opponent outplayed it (It's possible that melee's with a TF could dodge it, but since I always gear it towards targeting their mid/adc, it feels like they can't dodge it). Why not return the AOE to the previous size, but increase travel time so people could escape? There is a lot of satisfaction to landing ults like these on multiple champs


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Strikersgun

Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Volgust:
My major issue about this rework is that his only form of defensive utility is screwed. Please, people, play against assassins. Any assassin with an instant blink, could even be Xin Zhao mid, you'll see what I'm talking about. What my major worry about W and E are. Normally, there's a counter to everything and that's good!

To put it simple:

Melee DPS now bones him entirely
Mobility bones him harder than live
Burst wrecks him

What does he have if he's up against Talon? Ahri? Zed? KassaWin? Hell even Xin Zhao, they all have pass-through skill shots (Well, except xin, he no skillshots) He has some poke at level 1, maybe 2. But once it hits level 3 that's when he's doomed.

Why am I the only one commenting on this? Am I the only one that sees how regular matchups go against these and fear that they're only going to be worse now?


I totally understand your point, I play Xerath almost exclusively in ranked and in normals and this rework is going to make everything harder for us compared to live especially endgame with physical dmg having 250-300 armor at the end of a game meant even if lets say zed got to me i can survive the initial attack and Zhonya the ult dmg while my team start killing him now ill be dead even without his ult.

The passive didnt help against ap opponents no but there are more ways to fight them in team fights compared to zed with all the mobility he has and him being flavor of the month.


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xTheBackUpPlanx

Junior Member

10-17-2013

I feel like that his ultimate is very disconnected from his basic abilities, there is no synergy at all, I could see his three basic ability combine into a deadly combo (e>easy land on w and q), but then there is the ultimate, the fun in xerath is landing all his abilities in a short period of time, melting carries from afar, currently the PBE xerath's ultimate seems like hit or miss, there is no reliable damage in it alone, since there is no cc when during the ultimate. I would like to see more synergy between his basic abilities.

Overall:
- He's still a siege machine
- He got more lane presence pre 6 (he is less reliant on his ult)
- I like that you compensate his extra mana cost with his new passive
- I like the Less OP %magic pen (2 second cooldown 40% magic pen is pretty op, with void staff we are talking about 75% magic pen and that is juts too op)

But:
- He is more DPS than burst (burst is the fun part of Xerath)
- His ultimate is less reliable (even though you gave him one more shot, but looking at the ap scaling i think you guys are expecting Xerath to land all four shots to compensate for the lost %magic pen and the weaker scaling, keep in mind live Xerath has 40% magic pen and 180% scaling on his ult when all three shots landed, now he has about 120% scaling and NO %magic pen)
- the "range" department on xerath only limit to his ultimate (the q needs to be charged, the w is pretty much similar to the old q's range)


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crims0nangel

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Mysnomer:
****ING QUOTED FOR TRUTH!
If the highest praise for something you did involving any sort of established subject is that people who had no interest in it before hand, or actively disliked it are now interested, then you have utterly failed. Rioters swagger around constantly on their high horses, and act like they can do no wrong in the long run. When you are willing to gut core concepts which served as the basis for the sale of a character, and then just talk down anyone who opposes you, I lose all faith in Riot as designers. You can't balance a character based around Xerath's Locus? Bull. ****. You have had a failure of imagination, and that's the truth. You are too constrained by "toxicity," "anti-patterns," and "fulfilling character fantasies" to create anything truly magnificent. Truly unique and exciting character designs will wither and die as fast as you can release them as you rework and rework until everything is a rehash of something else that doesn't ruffle the feathers of the general masses of your players. You constantly baby the game like overprotective parents, stifling its growth by making sure it never steps off the path you've planned for it, never embarrasses you in front of company. It's funny that you can talk down to the opposition, so self-assured. It makes you sound arrogant, but to stoop the way you have, I can't imagine you have any pride at all.
And of course, like all other reworks, you won't be offering refunds or anything, despite basically sneaking into my house and swapping out my toaster for a clock radio that looks like my toaster. It had been a while since Riot really kicked me in the teeth, and so I bought the Jinx bundle. I immediately regret supporting you hacks. From lore, to reworks, to live balance, every department of Riot has some rotten part that just prevents me from truly enjoying this game. When I'm just chilling with my friends, playing an ARAM or whatever, I manage to enjoy myself. But every time I try to delve deeper, to look into what's going on behind the scenes, I just get so fed up with you people.

I'm not even a Xerath main, I just enjoy the occasional lark with him and I don't like this change. I don't see how people who have played him to death, essentially bonding with character and creating a playstyle, knowing all his ins and outs are okay with never having the experience of playing him ever again.

Best and truest post in this entire thread. Its amazing how the majority of people who are giving this rework positive feedback give off the impression of never playing xerath or playing xerath and being unable to use his kit to the maximum of its ability.


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Crownface

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Mysnomer:
****ING QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

I'm not even a Xerath main, I just enjoy the occasional lark with him and I don't like this change. I don't see how people who have played him to death, essentially bonding with character and creating a playstyle, knowing all his ins and outs are okay with never having the experience of playing him ever again.


The tone of this post is really bad, but there are definitely a lot of points that I personally agree with, especially the part about never having that same experience with the character again (which isn't always bad, AP Yi doesn't exist any more and he was a pain), and on design priorities.

I'm a recent graduate doing market research in China, so I thought it was a good opportunity to really try out 300 Heroes, and it's crazy fun when you have 20~ ping. Characters from League haven't been ported over for a long time, and they make up a very small minority of the roster (although Xerath is actually one of the few they made sure to include!).

I won't say much more about it because it's a very different game from League, and not related to the thread, but I'd encourage anyone curious (or angry) about the difference between the design philosophies in the competitive game that League is and a game that focuses *only* on fun (for better or worse) to do some research on it, it's really a lot of fun.


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Doom Puppy

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
IS1fa8992fb18aa9b5291e6:



R : I am a fan of the high AE ultimate on Live Xerath, and the feeling of crushing a team if you can catch them few seconds, like an MF can do. But it seems you prefer turning it on a snip' tool as a finisher. I dont really like this way, but in this case the vision on Ultimate is mandatory.
Without it, I feel ressourceless :
R CD is quite long, so you dont use it anymore "just for a try to spot" like we may do on Live Xerath. As the radius is small, you cant rely on it to deal AE on teamfight, and use your basic kit. So you keep it to "chase" fleeing. With the high range, you can do that pretty well, but with no vision, havin 4500 range or 2000 is near the same, the possible ways to flee are too important, so you most of time you'll waste your ultimate. Even on 1500 - 2000 range, you 'll have to waste one shot to "scout".
For myself you have 2 possibility :

- go on finisher way ==> give vision, really high range, but small AE radius
- go on ShellFire way ==> lower range (1500-2000?), no vision needed, high AE radius, long delay (like W) for better damages

I hope you will turn it into a Shellfire, because doing "Piu Piu" small quick damages is not really the Xerath we used to know. Live Xerath charge Q or R, and after a delay
energy come, explode and shine ... like a beautifull firework #psycho laugh#


I'm inclined to agree that Xerath should be a howitzer not a sniper. Lux is a sniper. She can keep that niche. Xerath ulting should be like a battle cruiser firing the main cannon. He may not be terribly accurate, heaven help you if he is though, but every shot should be impactful. Xerath ulting should be like playing Battleship in salvo mode. If he doesn't know where you are you're probably safe. If he has an idea where you are cross your fingers (well start dodging for League), and if he knows where you are odds are good you're dead.