In Depth Udyr Analysis from a Tiger Stance User

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Vecuu

Senior Member

12-14-2010

Edit: Includes a new (hope-filled) Thank you to Riot <3
I also tried to clear up some of the text to be more organized

Warning: Incoming wall of text with scattered mathcraft.


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Double Tiger works again as of Jan 4th


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Index:

1. A Preemptive Thank you
2. Plead to reds
3. Main Article
4. Bonus Tiger Stance Junngling Info (currently outdated)
5. Log kept of Thoughts on Various Patches
6. Dragon and You: Information on buffed Dragon
7. Long live Tiger Stance!

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1. A PREEMPTIVE THANK YOU

On Jan 2nd, 2011, Riot publicized it’s first “Patch Day Preview” video on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5WmG-LKhwA)

The highlight of which for me (despite the awesome CDR Boots for Lux), was hearing about Riot reverting Tiger Stance to the way it was before. What exactly this means is unsure, but any step backwards is the right step when it comes to balancing Tiger Stance. I, for one, am hopefully that this reversion is both of the scaling and the ability for the DoT to carry over in-between stances.

Whatever the case, Riot, thank you for listening to the small population of the community which liked Tiger Stance the way it was.

Thank you!


2. PLEAD TO REDS

As of patch v1.0.0.107 on Tue December, 14 2010, Tiger Stance DoT procs no longer carry over from Tiger Stance to another stance, and, as such, the Double Tiger combo is broken. This issue is doubled when the Tiger Stance numbers differ greatly from what was said in the patch notes (150% of AD changed to .6ap and 50%ad). I will try to keep this thread alive to raise awareness.

Plead to Reds,

You know as well as I do that Tiger Stance has been less appealing than Pheonix Stance for ages. This patch managed to nerf both Pheonix and Tiger, leaving Tiger to remain "worse" than Pheonix in the eyes of much of the community.

While the damage nerfs hit Tiger Stance pretty hard above a fairly easy to achieve base damage, my main complaint is not about the damage component of Tiger Stance.

It is in my opinion that if you allow the DoT proc to carry over with the attack speed buff, you will have sufficiently buffed / nerfed / balanced Tiger Stance to where a 5/5/3/5 or a 5/4/4/5 build will be, not only acceptable, but preferred. Creating harmony between the two offensive stances is the way to balance Udyr. Especially after taking away and/or nerfing so many of his item choices.

Please, let the DoT carry over to other stances. It adds diversity to Udyr's playstyle and will put Tiger, if not on par with Pheonix stance in the eyes of the community as a whole, at least on par with Pheonix stancemechanic wise.

Mechanically it doesn't make sense that Pheonix Stance's damage will remain on Udyr while in Turtle or Bear or Tiger, but to force Tiger's damage component to keep Udyr in one stance. Not only does it increase desparity between the two offensive stances, but it goes agianst Udyr's design which is based around switching stances to have one stance which must be remained in, in effect nerfing Tiger Stance's ability to have a preparatory effect for combat, which Turtle, Bear, and Pheonix all contain.



Sincerely,

Vecuu
An upset Tiger Udyr

3. THE MAIN ARTICLE

The great debate between whether Tiger Stance of Pheonix Stance is better than the other has been far-less debatable than it should have been in the past. Based on the affects brought upon by these two skills, one has been resigned for Jungling as a pro tank for your team, and the other has been delegated the role of being a sucky n00b dps role in the lane.

But why?

For the most part, this is due to the supposed viability in the jungle that the two skills have agianst the other. Or, simply put, a player will be a more effective jungler if he levels Pheonix stance up first.

Is this true?

Well, yes and no.

With rank one in Pheonix Stance, Udyr can solo the Ancient Golem at level 1 and be able to continue throughout the rest of the jungle with ~half hp and a blindingly fast clear time (anywhere from 3:20 to 4:00 based on rune choices [attack speeds runes will bring you to record speeds, but gimp the rest of your game, as a tank doesn't need a lot of attack speed to be effective]).

With rank one in Tiger Stance, Udyr can... umm... well, unfortunately we don't have a lot of data on this stance. I believe most of the tests in the past for Tiger jungling has gone something like this:

-put one point in Tiger Stance
-run up to Ancient Golem at level 1
-die to Ancient Golem at level 1
-swear on yo momma's grave that Tiger Stance is horrible

How many runes have been tested? Not a whole lot...

But wait! Let us take a moment and look at all four of Udyr's skills.

Tiger Stance: A single target dot-based skill that nukes based on Udyr's current AD
Turtle Stance: A 6second cooldown shield that shields the next 220 damage. This shield's effectiveness is multiplied by your Armor and Magic Resist stats, not to mention the passive lifesteal and "manasteal" parts of the skill.
Bear Stance: A speed boost that provides a mini stun, which can either be used for stopping channelled spells, impeed runners, or stun spamming the enemy team.
Pheonix Stance: A personal Funfire Cape that allows for quick and easy jungling.

From where I'm sitting, I feel as if the best of his four skills is, undoubtedly, Turtle Stance.

Turtle Stance is the reason that Udyr is invincible. A shortcooldown ability that makes Udyr feel like he has another 220 hp every cast (~3.6seconds). This ability is huge for his survivability. The more Armor and Magic Resist he has, the more invincible Udyr becomes.

If I had to pick another skill to be Turtle's close second, I would not hesitate to assign Bear Stance. Aside from Bear Stance having antlers in the Primal skin (which is kickass), we're talking speeds that rival Mach 12 and a 6second cooldown stun on one target, that can become even better the more targets that are nearby. If you can stun two people, we're talking about an effective 3second cooldown on a stun. If you stun three people, it's now a 2 second cooldown, etc.

At this point, most people would not hesitate to scream out that Pheonix Stance is better than Tiger Stance. Some might even go so far as to say that Pheonix Stance is better than Bear or even Turtle Stance. After all, if it is the only reason you can jungle, it must be good! Right?!?

WRONG!

What if I told you that you don't need Pheonix Stance to jungle?

"But, Vecuu! How is this possible?!?!!!11one1!1" you might ask me.

Simple. Max out Turtle Stance first.

Leveling your skills as W E W E W E W E W E (both Turtle and Bear at rank 5 by level 10 for those who don't want to count W's and E's), gives you more survivability, and most importantly, more mobility, which, in turn, gives you jungle control and causes enemy laners to fear your quick feet and mini stuns while you have Blessing of Lizard.

With Armor Yellows, Arpen Reds (Attack Speed Reds work as well), CDR blues, and Flat HP Quints, you can solo Golem at level 1 with nothing more than:

One Long Sword
Hp potx1

note: with blue buff you can solo dragon at level 4 with nothing other than a Madred's Razor by spamming Turtle stance (the CDR will allow you to keep up Monkey's Agility at 3 stacks, to increase your attack speed, which means more Razor procs, which means more hp/mana from Turtle's passive)

If you want to see any evidence of this working, you can watch Stonewall008's video, as it gives a visual representation of everything I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjGgNGcSERY

Let's talk about the pros and cons about jungling in this fashion.

Pros:

-constantly at higher hp
-your two best skills cost less mana and give stronger bonuses, which lead to
-constantly at higher mana
-less susceptible to ganks due to having a stronger shield and an early speed boost
-higher movement speed allows for easier ganks, and decreases the odds that the enemy will get away

Cons:

-You jungle about 20seconds slower
-Pheonix fanboys call you a n00b

Hrmm... Is it just me, or do the pros outweight the cons?

If you're jungling and don't level Pheonix first, you must have an alterier motive... and if you've been reading this far than I'm sure you see this coming...

Level
Tiger
Stance
Next

WATWATWAT!??!!?

That's right, everybody, level Tiger Stance next.

There are many reasons as to why you would do this, but the first and foremost is that you become a much less ignorable component in a team fight. You become, for lack of a better word, an Anti-Carry.

Let's talk a little bit about how Tiger Stance works. Upon casting Tiger Stance you are given a buff which lasts ~5seconds that makes your next attack inflict your target with a DoT based on your current AD (this is why people think of Tiger Stance as a skill only for DPS Udyr). Please note: this proc will remain on Udyr even if you change out of Tiger Stance into another stance.

With 30% CDR tiger stance is lowered to a 4second cooldown.

In a basic skirmish or teamfight, a Tiger Stance-based Udyr will do the following very rapidly.

-pick the squishiest target (typically the carry)
-activate Tiger Stance, procing the on hit effect
-activate Bear Stance
-charge the squishey target
-hit the squishey target, activating the Tiger Stance proc, and stunning the target
-activate Turtle Stance so you don't get hurt at all
-activate Tiget stance agian, reapplying the DoT which should have worn off about the same time that you hit Q a second time
-laugh as the squishey takes insane damage

I'm going to use Tiger Stance's old formula at rank 5 for the time being.

(AD*3)=damage taken

With this above combat trick for double Tiger Stance activation, the formula changes to:

(AD*3)*2=damage taken

A typical TANKY Udyr, will have around 150 base damage with just a Madreds Bloodrazor.

(150*3)*2=900

Holy ****

900 DAMAGE FROM A TANK?!?

Yes.

note: I chose not to apply magic resist for simplicity's sake, not to mention the 2-3 auto attacks the champion would take will counteract this with more damage to spare.

So, by not leveling Pheonix Stance first, we slow our jungling by about 20seconds, increase our survivability and mobility in the jungle, increase our ganking capacity, and scare the pants off of an enemy carry in a team fight, supporting your team by either killing the carry, or causing the carry to run, preventing potential thousands of damage to your team either way.

Fastforward until today:

Tiger Stance gets a change. I won't call it a buff or a nerf for sure until I test it, but at this point, it seems like both.

At rank 5 with 150AD the new Tiger Stance's formula would provide about this much damage

(150*1.5)+200)=425

and if we do the simple "Double Tiger" combo, the damage changes to:
((150*1.5)+200)*2=850

This is a minor nerf at Udyr's late game. VERY MINOR. Certainly, the nerf is felt more the more damage you stack, but I'm not talking about stacking damage, just a Madreds and some tank items.

Alternatively, you can use my traditional Tiger Stance build which is something like the following:

Wriggles (or Madred's Bloodrazor if they are all tanky)
Merc Treads
Randuins
Banshees
Atmas
Situational: Frozen Mallet / FoN / GA / Thornmail

The atmas makes your Tiger
hit
like
a
truck.


tldr; Tiger Stance is overshadowed by Pheonix Stance for the simple reason that Pheonix Stance is commonly believed to be the only way to jungle as Udyr, but, in reality, Tiger Stance is incredibly potent even on a Tank Build.


================================================== ===================


4. BONUS TIGER STANCE JUNGLING INFO

This next section is for Jungling Fanatics and/or people with way too much time or IP on their hands.

Masteries:

21/0/9

Runes:

Armor Yellow
CDR Blues
Attack Speed Reds
Flat HP Quints

Items:

Cloth Armor
Hp Potions x5

Skill Order:

Q W Q E Q W Q W Q W W E E E E R R R

Basic Strategy

Ancient Golem Camp
-hit Tiger Stance at ~1:51 or 1:52 to charge your DoT.
-When Ancient Golem Spawns, immediately right click it, activating Tiger Stance
-pop an HP potion as soon as you take damage
-When Tiger Stance is off cooldown, hit it again, if you did it right, the first DoT should just have ended (you may have different results based on how itchy your trigger finger is)
-when Smitable, Smite
-Activate Tiger stance on the small minion nearest, killing it with an auto attack or two
-auto attack the next minion

At this point it's pretty easy, you just need to make sure of one thing:

ACTIVATE TIGER STANCE ABOUT 3 SECONDS BEFORE YOU REACH YOUR NEXT CAMP.

This allows you to have a shorter cooldown on Tiger Stance once you get there. Typically, I’ve been using Tiger Stance to kill the large wolf and then Turtle to regain some HP while I auto the little ones (same concept for Wraiths with

Following a basic Golem(smite)->wolves->wraiths->lizard(smite)->golems stragety, you will finish at ~4:00 and at near full health health.

================================================== ======

Post Patch Tests and Thoughts:

January 4:
Patch v

This patch has been a huge boon for Tiger Stance. Tiger's AD ratio has been returned to a respectable amount (from 300% ad, to 50% ad, to 170% ad). While not as impressive when compared to it's original form in terms of pure damage output, there are a couple of things to consider.

1) Tiger Stance now has a base boost factored in after your AD, this allows you to use Tiger Stance while still building tanky without feeling guilty for not optimizing Tiger Stance.
2) Tiger Stance now adds an attack speed boost between stances. This is something that the original Tiger Stance never offered. Spamming Tiger/Turtle/Tiger/Turtle can yield some devastating damage and survivability.

6. Dragon and You: Information on buffed Dragon

With Dragon becoming a beast to fight agianst, a lot of junglers lost their ability to solo it at level 4. I know it's possible to kill at level 5 with a Madreds while Turtle Jungling, but still doing testing on reliability, since relying on Madreds Procs can make you die at inoppourtune times.

I have seen the new Dragon eat multiple champions. I feel like Riot has finally done what they wanted to do with Dragon, make it more of a team effort to kill dragon early game. While it is possible to kill dragon relatively early as Udyr, if the enemy team comes anywhere near you, the odds of you surviving are slim.

I for one, have been waiting until level 6 or 7 before I dragon. With TIger Jungling I can kill it relatively quickly once I have my Wriggles.

7. Long live Tiger Stance!


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TehRizzle

Senior Member

12-14-2010

..Wow..


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Vecuu

Senior Member

12-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehRizzle View Post
..Wow..
I told you it was in depth. :P


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xbombr

Senior Member

12-14-2010

I don't have time to read this gigantic wall, but Tiger Udyr was able to kill golem at level 1 just as easily as Phoenix. The problem he runs into is clearing out the other parts of the jungle faster.

Tiger jungling isn't as bad as people thought, Phoenix was just better for clearing quickly.


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Vecuu

Senior Member

12-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by xbombr View Post
I don't have time to read this gigantic wall, but Tiger Udyr was able to kill golem at level 1 just as easily as Phoenix. The problem he runs into is clearing out the other parts of the jungle faster.

Tiger jungling isn't as bad as people thought, Phoenix was just better for clearing quickly.
The second half explains how to get a 3:35 clear time leveling Tiger Stance first and still being at half hp (which ends up being about 400hp).


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Kithas48

Senior Member

12-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by xbombr View Post
I don't have time to read this gigantic wall, but Tiger Udyr was able to kill golem at level 1 just as easily as Phoenix. The problem he runs into is clearing out the other parts of the jungle faster.

Tiger jungling isn't as bad as people thought, Phoenix was just better for clearing quickly.
seriously yes!
When I opened this I was really hoping for someone else wh had atleast tried jungling with tiger before
you CAN kill golem lvl 1 with tiger, you CAN do the whole jungle (I usually back before red so I can gank afterwards) and you will survive. The new nerf to heal-leveling does worry me though, id often finish golem with about 200hp left

and you dont have to use a stupid redpot to do it either, you can start with a longsword and 2 hp pots and be fine


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TehRizzle

Senior Member

12-14-2010

You fool! Now Riot will nerf the double tiger trick


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Eriatarka

Senior Member

12-14-2010

I killed the Golem at level 1 with Tiger Stance, but then died to the two little guys standing with him. T_T


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Ribbones

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Senior Member

12-14-2010

Lemme say, I wasn't tempted to buy Udyr after watching GuardsmanBob... I wasn't tempted after seeing the enemy Udyr with full gear push an entire lane by himself, shrugging 4 of our teammates off like nothing...
But your wall of text with scattered mathcraft tempted me horribly.

Question: Is Sheen remotely viable on Udyr?


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Elementz

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The Council

12-14-2010

Good stuff.


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