@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

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DogFoodCookie

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Now I hope this isn't considered off-topic but I was wondering about Zyra's lore.

She doesn't come off as some evil plant but in game she's all about death and taking over. I don't understand where this came from, in her lore when she gets her body she feels frail but then realizes its a new life. Why is she immediately evil etc.? Even if it's because as a plant it's what she wanted to do wouldn't it be due to instinct? Shouldn't she be neutrally wanting to expand or take over?
I did re-read her lore just now, her plants being carnivorous but still think she could've gone a different more unique way.

It just seems like a weird personality that wasn't necessarily needed for her...

TLDR
Why did she have to be evil?


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFoodCookie View Post

TLDR
Why did she have to be evil?
zyra is evil?
i always thought that she basically has no lore.


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DogFoodCookie

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderswine View Post
zyra is evil?
i always thought that she basically has no lore.
You're so clever~

I'm speaking of her personality, I only mention lore because it never states her as evil. Her personality is more represented in the game through her speech.


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFoodCookie View Post
You're so clever~

I'm speaking of her personality, I only mention lore because it never states her as evil. Her personality is more represented in the game through her speech.
her speech is basically "im a plant,im a plant",her ult shout is a bit evilish,but that's not very telling.


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Veldameir

Junior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Priamos View Post
Why do I get the feeling that Janna, Soraka, Taric, and Alistar will be nerfed even further despite not seeing any (non-troll) game at Worlds?

Especially Janna...she scales quite well with CDR for a Support, which might make her stronger (read: she might see ONE GAME in professional play!) when Supports have more Gold. I have a feeling that Riot wants her destroyed, and will destroy her in Season 4.
Just because they didn't see legitimate play at worlds doesn't make them bad supports. It just didn't fit the playstyle that the teams wanted to make use of.

Janna is the ultimate c**k-block of the supports. She can save most if not all of her team when played well. She has a massive pool of unconventional CC for champions (knock up and knock back) that can't be reduced by tenacity.

Soraka is the god of all sustain. Her powerful heal in w (as well as the armor boost - +105 armor for 3 seconds for a bot lane. See: facing ad-carries), as well as being able to save allies from across the map in her ultimate. Mana hungry champs don't have to worry about their mana issues with a Soraka around.

Taric fits the niche of tank/support with more emphasis on support over tank (the contrast would be leona, who gets support items that also make her tanky, and focuses on being a tank for the team). The heals are reasonable, and if you're playing aggressively they are quite often. A massive and passive armor boost (again, bot lane vs. a marksman/adc) that scales reasonably with the amount of armor you have, a stun that can't miss with a fair cooldown (10 seconds at level 5, minimum cooldown of 6 seconds, and the stun lasts for 1.6 seconds at level 5). Taric does need items to be significant though, so only buying wards, a sightstone, and some boots doesn't keep around his usefulness.

Alistar has Janna's unconventional CC potential, while also being more of a tank than a support (though early game Alistar's constant heals are really nice, despite taking a significant amount of mana). An ultimate that reduces all damage by 70% at level 16 is really strong, and he can cause quite a bit of havoc in a teamfight and be able to get away with it. Alistar also needs items to fulfill his tanking potential, like Taric.

So why didn't they see any legitimate play at worlds? Because the niches they fill didn't match the playstyle they wanted.

Janna is a very strong support. However, the niche she fills is to keep everyone alive and to minimize the significance of mistakes that were made. In professional play, your team isn't really going to be making mistakes, or at least not nearly as many as players in silver, bronze, and potentially gold. She makes for a very good passive support using CC, but being passive isn't how teams wanted to play.

Soraka is all about the sustain, which makes for a very passive lane. Sure you can engage with your adc, but Soraka can't keep her adc alive for too long during an extended fight. She shines when your adc harasses well allowing him to keep harassing while mitigating the significance of an enemy's harass. Again, not the playstyle wanted by most teams at worlds.

Taric is the bulkiest actual support, and can be either passive or aggressive, but his ultimate doesn't bring enough to the table when it comes to teamfights. Janna has an aoe knockback (and heal if you can actually manage to keep channeling it). Sona has an aoe stun, as does Annie. Zyra has an aoe knockup, provided the rest of your team can keep them in the ult's area. Leona has a rather long ranged stun with a slight yet significant aoe. Lulu has a knockup and constant slow aura on any ally. Soraka has an aoe heal at global range, and so on. Since worlds matches had a large focus on teamfights, all of your teammates needed to bring something significant to the table, and Taric granting 70 attack damage and ability power to himself and half of that to his allies is rather lackluster in comparison.

Alistar has similar problems to Taric. His ult benefits himself, and provides no CC for a teamfight, but it allows him to last longer and get off his melee ranged unconventional CC without dying. In lane, he can keep the other team from making plays by knocking the adc away, as well as make plays of his own by the sheer amount of duration a champion is unable to do anything if he can use his knock up/stun, then his knock back, but he just doesn't bring enough aoe CC for a teamfight, like many popular supports do right now.

The main problem with all of the supports that you've mentioned is that their niches don't really fit the highly aggressive meta (at least at worlds).


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Gløry

Senior Member

10-19-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Yeah - I think they're more in control mage territory (you pick them for their utility or other functions, not raw damage).
id just like to point out that most "control mages" have plenty of damage to get the job done, and most "damage" mages who outdamage those control mages, have no tools to fall back on to keep themselves alive.


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DogFoodCookie

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderswine View Post
her speech is basically "im a plant,im a plant",her ult shout is a bit evilish,but that's not very telling.
"This land is mine!"
"No place is safe while I'm free!"
^ Taunts

"Just a harmless flower"
"Death is in bloom."
"Choke the life from them."
"The harvest is upon us."
"My prey thinks itself clever."
"None will escape my grasp"
^ Other quotes (moving/attacking)

Her tone also heavily implies she's evil.
Again, just feel like they could've gone a more unique route with her and was wondering if Morello could shed some light on why they went where they did with her.


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Proximus D

Senior Member

10-19-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We're buffing support gold a lot - we're going to have to do a lot of champ-specific changes (and yes, some nerfs) because they've never been balanced to scale at all. If they get to scale, then it needs to be reasonable in how and why. More on this soon.
I'm curious how you want to prevent the supports from simply investing all their increased gold income into more wards.

A "you can't buy more than 3 wards" probably would only mean that supports have to recall a lot more, but still plaster the map with wards.
Maybe using the sightstone approach, saying: "no single player can have more than 3 wards on the map, newer wards replace old ones"? I think this could be fun - warding would become more of a team effort like in LCS instead of the usual "Yo, supp, map's too dark. Do somethin'!".


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFoodCookie View Post
"This land is mine!"
"No place is safe while I'm free!"
^ Taunts

"Just a harmless flower"
"Death is in bloom."
"Choke the life from them."
"The harvest is upon us."
"My prey thinks itself clever."
"None will escape my grasp"
^ Other quotes (moving/attacking)

Her tone also heavily implies she's evil.
Again, just feel like they could've gone a more unique route with her and was wondering if Morello could shed some light on why they went where they did with her.
well you have a point there,completely slipped my mind.
why is she evil really,meh her lore just sucks terribly.(she was plant,then she became sorta human,then she decided "better go evil and join the league"-not much sense here)


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Ironstryde

Member

10-19-2013

I personally really enjoy support, including the warding... One thing Morello( Thanks for keeping the discussion open by the way,) has stated is that he doesn't want dedicated healers in this game. I think that is great. It forces people to be active instead of proactive. I don't want support to suddenly become another carry as I think the shot calling/pinging/warding and utility really plays to the strategist in us. My one problem however, if you don't want supports to have to much healing, I feel like we should be able to put up a fight if opponent is less than half health.

Right now when i play carry, even if I'm at 1/4 health, and I see a support I go all in if I see them alone. Their typical option is:
a. escape
b. escape
c. and escape

It would be nice to see supports be able to stand up for themselves vs a low health opponent. By no way do I believe they should have carry status damage however. Thanks for the insight so far.