@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

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Kaigemercer

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10-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We've never done gold flow work on them before, directly. Understandable though.

We're buffing support gold a lot - we're going to have to do a lot of champ-specific changes (and yes, some nerfs) because they've never been balanced to scale at all. If they get to scale, then it needs to be reasonable in how and why. More on this soon.
im not sure how you would buff it but i think if ou used more of a system like the way ashe build crit chance like say if a support doesnt atk for like 10,15,30 secs the next kill would grant a much larger gold bonus for the kill since other areas of the game would be killing much faster it would hurt them but say after like 30 secs a gold kill would be worth 50 or 60 gold instead of say 15 to 20 but uping thier gold will always effect others like i use maoki for my support champ and do well but he is based a jungler although i play him every pos except adc but a non kill timer bonus could be viable but make sure if u use a timer we can see it so that at the same point we dont gimp our adc cuz we think oh its time let me kill doh missed full timer sorta thing


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Priamos

Senior Member

10-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We've never done gold flow work on them before, directly. Understandable though.

We're buffing support gold a lot - we're going to have to do a lot of champ-specific changes (and yes, some nerfs) because they've never been balanced to scale at all. If they get to scale, then it needs to be reasonable in how and why. More on this soon.
Why do I get the feeling that Janna, Soraka, Taric, and Alistar will be nerfed even further despite not seeing any (non-troll) game at Worlds?

Especially Janna...she scales quite well with CDR for a Support, which might make her stronger (read: she might see ONE GAME in professional play!) when Supports have more Gold. I have a feeling that Riot wants her destroyed, and will destroy her in Season 4.


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Ginga

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10-18-2013

Hey Morello, if you're still crawling around in this thread, there's two very important key points I hope gets you and the balance team's attention.


1. Zyra is as slow as she is squishy. Most champions are only one, but Zyra is both. If her ranges are nerfed, I hope you keep that fact in mind. Against champions with powerful poke, such as Ahri, Ziggs, or Lux, Zyra already has considerable difficulty(they have no problem harassing through her plants, and they have an easy time dodging her snare). Against Assassins, she relies on her pre-6 advantage(see #2 below) while keeping a safe distance with her range. Against generic mages like Brand or other squishy+immobile mages...well they don't exist anymore do they?


2. a) Simply "buffing ratios while nerfing bases" will hurt AP mid Zyra more than you might think. There are a lot of match-ups where her early game harass is absolutely essential to her success. Those match-ups often involves champions who become demons at level 6, such as Ahri, Kass, Fizz, etc. In other match-ups, or even depending on playstyle, sometimes getting a Chalice or some other item that doesn't give too much AP is often the best solution. The popular idea of upping Zyra's ratios to counter-act her base nerf will be a straight-up nerf to anything but the Zyra's who go all-out AP early game, even if the Zyra player needs whatever other item her match-up may demand.


2. b)
I am a fan of building Liandries+Rylai's on her(and seeing other games with Zyra mid, turns out I'm not alone). They do not give the crazy amount of AP that Rabadon's+DFG+whatever typically gives. When you nerf her bases and buff her ratios, if her ratios aren't buffed high enough, I fear it'd be a straight up nerf to former style while only compensating for the latter glass cannon build of Zyra. The former build with Liandries+Rylai's make a bit more use of her bases than the Zyra who builds crazy pure AP. Please keep this in consideration.



Lastly, does her Passive have any bearing on her supposed OP-ness as a support? Because if it contributes even a little bit to her problem as a support at all, I'd be totally cool with her Passive being replaced by something that actually fits her rather than a buggy suicide cannon out of nowhere. And yes it's still buggy.


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
Hey Morello, if you're still crawling around in this thread, there's two very important key points I hope gets you and the balance team's attention.


1. Zyra is as slow as she is squishy. Most champions are only one, but Zyra is both. If her ranges are nerfed, I hope you keep that fact in mind. Against champions with powerful poke, such as Ahri, Ziggs, or Lux, Zyra already has considerable difficulty(they have no problem harassing through her plants, and they have an easy time dodging her snare). Against Assassins, she relies on her pre-6 advantage(see #2 below) while keeping a safe distance with her range. Against generic mages like Brand or other squishy+immobile mages...well they don't exist anymore do they?


2. a) Simply "buffing ratios while nerfing bases" will hurt AP mid Zyra more than you might think. There are a lot of match-ups where her early game harass is absolutely essential to her success. Those match-ups often involves champions who become demons at level 6, such as Ahri, Kass, Fizz, etc. In other match-ups, or even depending on playstyle, sometimes getting a Chalice or some other item that doesn't give too much AP is often the best solution. The popular idea of upping Zyra's ratios to counter-act her base nerf will be a straight-up nerf to anything but the Zyra's who go all-out AP early game, even if the Zyra player needs whatever other item her match-up may demand.


2. b)
I am a fan of building Liandries+Rylai's on her(and seeing other games with Zyra mid, turns out I'm not alone). They do not give the crazy amount of AP that Rabadon's+DFG+whatever typically gives. When you nerf her bases and buff her ratios, if her ratios aren't buffed high enough, I fear it'd be a straight up nerf to former style while only compensating for the latter glass cannon build of Zyra. The former build with Liandries+Rylai's make a bit more use of her bases than the Zyra who builds crazy pure AP. Please keep this in consideration.



Lastly, does her Passive have any bearing on her supposed OP-ness as a support? Because if it contributes even a little bit to her problem as a support at all, I'd be totally cool with her Passive being replaced by something that actually fits her rather than a buggy suicide cannon out of nowhere. And yes it's still buggy.
for the last time(am getting tired of repeating this):
zyra isn't op at support,there's nothing to indicate that she is,pretty much the only serious claim i've heard of zyra being op as a support is in this thread,non of my friends see her as such,pretty much no one sees her as such,there is no intention to nerf support zyra in here,the only intention is to remove zyra from the game(aside from the 1% of games shell be picked at after these nerfs,and will do poorly in).


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Best Dota 2 Sona

Junior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
AP mid Zyra? Totally balanced.


If you nerf her because she's too good at supporting, know what will happen when you nerf a balanced champion? Before you nerfed her E's missile speed because she was too good bot? Still balanced at mid.

You metaphorically take a middle finger and jab it into the eyes of every player who occasionally send her mid.


So please oh please, when you feel like nerfing her. Consider doing it WITHOUT screwing over Zyra in her intended role. Pretty please? Remember how Blitzcrank used to exist as something other than a support long long ago? Yet now he really can't function outside of babysitting an ADC? Let's not have that happen to anymore champions. Remember how Alistar used to exist?


KEEP THIS BUMPED OR YOU'LL SUDDENLY FIND ANOTHER CHAMPION NERFED TO THE POINT WHERE SHE'LL REALLY NEVER BE ANYTHING BUT A SUPPORT EVER AGAIN.


PS - one more thing to consider. Maybe if you hadn't nerfed all the traditional supports multiple times in a row, maybe support players wouldn't have started supporting with Fiddles, Annie, and Zyra instead.
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/20638618
As a only sona support ranked player since s1, I can't find any better words to describe the situations for supports. Sona has been nerfed probably the most in league of legends. I had to change the gameplay so many times it is rather ridiculous. She gets a nerf every other time when she is doing too much damage or out trading damage. Her Q range got nerfed, Power cord gets nerfed, Her base mr and armor gets nerfed, ap ratio got nerfed, her base hp gets nerfed. Like, how are we suppose to play a role of a support with so limited actions.

What's going to happen to all those aggressive supports that stuns roots and dps? The rising amount of supports of annie, fiddle and zyra? Are they going to get nerfs as much as sona?
What's going to happen to all those non-existant supports like Taric, Soraka and Alistar? Maybe even Zilean.

I've had enough experience as a support in dota 2 and in league. League needs to implement a more suitable support role. Either to give them exclusive items or more active items that generate a better impact on the game.

And please stop nerfing sona. Buff her rather....


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LifeiNDanger

Junior Member

10-19-2013

I made a forum account just for this.

For the love of god please don't kill support zyra.

She is one of the few supports that I feel like I can legitimately use skill to outplay other 2v2 lanes.

Please...


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TheMagicCactus

Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathByWaffle View Post
Morello, quick question.

What would you think about having Zyra's base damages reduced, but compensated by an increase in AP ratios? The idea would be to encourage Zyra players to play her AP mage if they want to do damage, whereas support Zyra players still has strong utility, but less of the damage, making them less dominant.
Nerfing Zyra she will become a ranged Alistar with a longer cool down knock up and a skill shot snare, shes played cause she has damage and is a threat in lane. She is fine the way she is in my opinion, people say "Oh her damage is to high" her dps is high cause her plants get nothing but free autos off in lane, focus the plants and her damage is dramatically decreased in lane, watch all these pro tournaments. They normally focus the plants as soon as possible where as people in solo que just let them get off free autos

But hey, that's my opinion being as I play her so much and is my favourite champ


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeiNDanger View Post
I made a forum account just for this.

For the love of god please don't kill support zyra.

She is one of the few supports that I feel like I can legitimately use skill to outplay other 2v2 lanes.

Please...
same here,but they seem to have already made up their mind,morrelos posts are pretty much about ways to rework her after she gets nerfed to oblivion,whilst certaintlyT just made one very deceitful post and then disappeared,i'm pretty sure removing her from the game is the exact intention of these nerfs(otherwise what's with all this silence?is there really nothing to discuss?).


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Dremiist

Senior Member

10-19-2013

imagine if her ult made her plant grow and move on their own


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Dota 2 Sona View Post
And please stop nerfing sona. Buff her rather....
not trying to be a ****** or anything,but sona is really strong right now,with zyra out of her way she will be...well...too strong.
yes i don't like this,i would rather both stay untouched,but i knew that if one of them ever gets nerfed the other will probably soon follow.