@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

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Morello

Lead Designer

10-16-2013
15 of 15 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
Oi Morello, if you're still here I have some suggestions to compensate to those severe nerfs.


I have TWO main suggestions I hope you can take into consideration and give some feedback to.

First of all, if you really want to make her more plant-focused, I think you should start with parts of her kit that doesn't do a thing with her plants, namely her Passive. It was literally a placeholder Passive that doesn't fit her in anyway at all, so I think that may be a good start.



Passive - Vigorous Pollination: Zyra is pollinated by her spawn. She generates Seedlings at an increased rate for each plant on the field up to a maximum of X seedlings.

Zyra is not just a plant, but a FEMALE plant. What if she were a really fertile female and her Passive lets her pollinate like from her plants? This Passive will encourage her to not just summon plants, but to do so smartly. To summon her plants in a way to keep them alive rather than simply throwing them into the opponent.


Second is a modification of her plant mechanics.


From now on her plants comes in 5 levels. Level 1 being incredibly weak and fragile, while level 5 being incredibly sturdy, enough to survive a teamfight long enough to be relevant. When a plant is summoned, they start off at level 1. The plant gradually matures the more it attacks, going from 1 to 5. Zyra may summon a Seedling near the plant to heal the plant and accelerate their maturation to the next level. Alternatively, Zyra may choose to cast the spell that spawned the plant in the first place on the plant again, doing so will kill the plant and grow two plants that are two levels lower than the one you sacrificed.



These changes are designed to give Zyra the ability to have a lot more plants around than she currently can, or if she wants, a small number of large really sturdy plants.




The intention of the Passive is to compensate for the excessive nerfs to her W, to give her a Passive relevant to her playstyle, and to steer her towards a more plant-friendly playstyle like you want. It encourages you to protect and cultivate your plants, and it gives her a "nature is taking over!" theme as the better she does, the more plants there will be in the battleground. The intention of the changes to her plants is to make Zyra players put more thoughts into how they position her plants, to take care of Zyra's babies. On the other side of the coin, it also gives Zyra's opponents more counter-play to Zyra's plants too. They may attempt to aggressively kill Zyra's plants while they're still young, or focus the plants down. If the plants are down, Zyra gets less plants to pollinate her and she generates seedlings slower. Not to mention, the killing of a level 5 plant will erase a lot of hardwork Zyra will have put into cultivating it. The enemy player has MUCH more incentives to pay attention to Zyra's plants now, while Zyra herself has much more incentive to think about how she summons them and what to do with each plant.



Now, how will this Zyra with her new plants not work out in lane as well as she currently does? Her damage output will not be nearly as high as they are not as it takes longer for her plants to mature, not to mention, with the method her plants matures, she will be less ideal as a support as she will forcefully push the lane or even still cs from the ADC. If the ADC is constantly trying to farm with Zyra's plants around, her plants won't have as much food as they would have in mid, hence they take far longer to mature, keeping them in immature states much longer. Replacing her true damage Passive will also hurt her more as a Support than as an AP mid(I hope).
While specifically I'd take a different approach, this plant-based "grow the world over" direction is much more the area I want her to live.


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Akava

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Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We've never done gold flow work on them before, directly. Understandable though.

We're buffing support gold a lot - we're going to have to do a lot of champ-specific changes (and yes, some nerfs) because they've never been balanced to scale at all. If they get to scale, then it needs to be reasonable in how and why. More on this soon.
Does this mean something like Sona's W not feeling weak late game? 150 hp is a drop in a bucket when looking at people with 2-3k health.


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Firefly Captain

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
Oi Morello,
hire dis guy


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cocacolalips

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We've never done gold flow work on them before, directly. Understandable though.

We're buffing support gold a lot - we're going to have to do a lot of champ-specific changes (and yes, some nerfs) because they've never been balanced to scale at all. If they get to scale, then it needs to be reasonable in how and why. More on this soon.
Nerfs?

What about buffs?

If you increase the gold income for that position; champions and most specifically supports who have overall crappy scaling are going to be overshadowed by mages even more.

I would totally see Soraka's Wish back to 1.4 AP ratio. You bite or not?


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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
While specifically I'd take a different approach, this plant-based "grow the world over" direction is much more the area I want her to live.
While you're here, wanna clear up what CertainlyT said about Zyra and about his..umm...dumb claim about zyra on this thread:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...35016#42135016

Are you really going down this path?!


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Phyrexia

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Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We've never done gold flow work on them before, directly. Understandable though.

We're buffing support gold a lot - we're going to have to do a lot of champ-specific changes (and yes, some nerfs) because they've never been balanced to scale at all. If they get to scale, then it needs to be reasonable in how and why. More on this soon.
Uh oh, I see it now.

Soraka

Passive- Removed, power without gameplay. Replaced with on-hit passive of some sort.

Q- Given buffs, then has those buffs reverted followed by nerfs to the MR reduction and mana cost

W- Base cut to 25/50/75/100/125, but AP ratio is increased to .5! One week later armor bonus is cut to 1 second duration and mana costs are tripled.

E- Removed completely, to be replaced at a later date.

R- Will be talked about being a perfect ultimate; heal value nerfed and CD increased

I'm wise to your tricks Morello. I've learned not to get my hopes up.


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Hellsaw

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Yep! But I'd rather weaken and risk balance on a champion if it makes the strategic niche and identity more diverse and clear.

EDIT: Again surprised! You guys prefer leaving Zyra alone, we can do that. I'm surprised more people don't want the plant mage gameplay that would be much more unique.
"much more unique" . . . Olaf got that treatment and well, he now needs a decent amount of fixing before people can start getting good with him again.


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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
While specifically I'd take a different approach, this plant-based "grow the world over" direction is much more the area I want her to live.

Also, if you think about it, and if you do want a champion around what he said, like abilities healing up plants and sarcificing them.....it could just turn into another plant champion o.o'


We shall call her....Ivy...jk, copyrights too OP.


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Yakkou

Member

10-16-2013

If supports gets more gold to spend, mind also giving them something COOL to spend the gold on? Because obviously they're getting diddly-squat from building AP with their piddly ratios unless you're supposed to normally be an AP mid in the first place.


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AlexDnD2

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We've never done gold flow work on them before, directly. Understandable though.

We're buffing support gold a lot - we're going to have to do a lot of champ-specific changes (and yes, some nerfs) because they've never been balanced to scale at all. If they get to scale, then it needs to be reasonable in how and why. More on this soon.
So Soraka is getting hit with the nerf bat again? Because that's ALL YOU HAVE EVER DONE TO HER!