@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
So how is slightly upping the range of her seed planting ability while taking the range away from the spells that hatches the seed, while simultaneously overkill-nerfing her CDR not over-nerfing a balanced AP mid?
the changes currently on pbe don't seem to change support zyra much,but hit mid zyra more,for me the q change won't change much,as generally all i want to do(as a support) is to "activate" the plant,since her q is an aoe,i dont think that would be a problem.
as a support the changes which are currently on pbe don't seem too interesting(the cdr reduction on her w is annoying idea wise,but i don't think it will change much about her since i rarely manage to put more than 2 points in it)

my problem is this statement:
Zyra
Summary: Deadly Bloom's damage has been reduced but her AP ratio has been increased. Rampant Growth's passive cooldown reduction and early damage has been reduced, but its damage at later levels and range has been increased. We've also improved Zyra's overall useability with enraging plants / transforming seeds into plants by spells.
Context: Our overall strategy here was to tone down Zyra's early level poke damage and, while we are reducing some of her overall power, we also wanted to improve her ability to fluidly combo cast with seeds. Additionally, reducing the base damage of her spells while increasing the AP ratios are aimed at reducing her power as a support without hurting her capabilities as a mage.

Deadly Bloom
- Range minorly reduced
- Damage reduced(painful,the damage is needed to trade in lane)
- AP ratio increased
Rampant Growth
- Passive cooldown reduced
- Plant base damage reduced at lower levels and increased at higher levels (this is very painful,as she needs that damage to trade properly in lane,whilst lategame support damage output is completely meaningless,so it doesn't compensate at all)
- Reduced the delay before seeds can be stepped on by enemies
- Range minorly increased
- Fixed a bug where seeds would very sometimes not be turned into plants by spells
Stranglethorns
- Stun no longer persists for some duration after the knockup ends.(this is huge,i don't see the sense in it,and on it's own already seems like too much)
- Now properly enrages plants created within the bramble zone after Stranglethorns has been cast
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
What truly burns is the fact that she's nerfed because people are playing her in such a boring despised role. It wouldn't have sucked nearly as much if she was OP as top, jungle, or as an ADC.
you are getting on my nerves here,i've been maining support zyra for pretty much a year,and she is probably one of the most fun support due to her direct impact(instead of auras shield and heals),and the fact she is skillshot based and isn't sona faceroll.

STOP FORCING ME TO PLAY SONA MORELLO.


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TomatoTamago

Senior Member

10-11-2013

every champion should be strong,nerfing do nothing,the best is learn how to counterplay


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No Pawns Dawns

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Senior Member

10-11-2013

"Support Zyra is too strong, along with Annie, Fiddle, heck, even Brand, so instead of fixing the supports we murdered in Season 2 and 3, we're going to ruin some AP casters for anyone that enjoys taking them mid. Have a wonderful day and go **** yourself."

-Morello

Obligatory Edit: I seriously forgot LeBlanc. My bad guys. I'll go home, I must be drunk.


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CreativeSavagery

Junior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
The primary thing I'd like to do to Zyra is to make her MORE about plants, and less burst mage. I don't entirely know how this will effect which lane, but I do understand the sentiment to the bottom lane vs mid lane approach. This has been why we've been conservative so far (the missile speed change was just something we should have released with).

I can put more complete thoughts on this later, but that's likely the direction we'd look at outside of numbers tweaks.

EDIT: I can't imagine this is the post that's downvoted. You guys really don't want her to be about plants? I'm honestly surprised - is this a "change is bad", or "Zyra is just a mage to me"?

She should have a hidden passive with Maoki.


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mertatron

Senior Member

10-11-2013

it is sure they will hurt mid lane zyra more than support zyra

and I only play mid lane Zyra, I don't like support Zyra


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-11-2013

as a support main,who doesn't mind playing something which doesn't have the "support" tag,i feel this needs a serious reply,as there is a very serious misconception here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
"Support Zyra is too strong,
false,pick+banrate at world championship resembled that of thresh and sona,if zyra is op,so are thresh and sona.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
along with Annie,
look,i don't know if you ever played against annie bot lane,but if you ever will be unlucky enough to face her,you will see why you can't simply buff other supports to her level,in lane she has 625 range,her low cd q allows her to trade whilst her e makes sure she trades favorable against most support,she can zone and burst pretty well pre 6.
but once she hits 6,better pray to god,cause she will stun lock you and burst you down(with any adc who can follow up(aka any adc)) and there is nothing you can do about it aside from having tibbers range away from her,and even then,if she gets the right positioning she can flash ult you(i have done that to taric,100-0 him with varus follow up),and due to the long stun,her low cd q,and tibber aura+tibbers aa+tibbers blocking skillshot,any retaliation will just get the adc killed aswell(in the taric case,varus ult spread to cait,my stun went back and he got a double kill),annie as a support is hell to play against.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
Fiddle,
fiddle works as a support because his kit is just loaded with cc,on top of which he has incredibly high base damage,the non skillshot fear is pretty annoying,but it is possible to buff other supports to his level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
heck, even Brand,
seems too skillshot reliant,so i doubt it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
so instead of fixing the supports we murdered in Season 2 and 3, we're going to ruin some AP casters for anyone that enjoys taking them mid. Have a wonderful day and go **** yourself."

-Morello
it's one thing when they nerf op support,better solutions(buffing all supports) require too much resources at the middle of a season,problems arise when they start nerfing top tier supports,(zyra) because what happens now,is that sona is strong in comparison to other supports right now,with zyra out of the picture,sona will be op,and will require nerfs,and the cycle of support destruction will begin a new.


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No Pawns Dawns

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Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderswine View Post
as a support main,who doesn't mind playing something which doesn't have the "support" tag,i feel this needs a serious reply,as there is a very serious misconception here.

false,pick+banrate at world championship resembled that of thresh and sona,if zyra is op,so are thresh and sona.
look,i don't know if you ever played against annie bot lane,but if you ever will be unlucky enough to face her,you will see why you can't simply buff other supports to her level,in lane she has 625 range,her low cd q allows her to trade whilst her e makes sure she trades favorable against most support,she can zone and burst pretty well pre 6.
but once she hits 6,better pray to god,cause she will stun lock you and burst you down(with any adc who can follow up(aka any adc)) and there is nothing you can do about it aside from having tibbers range away from her,and even then,if she gets the right positioning she can flash ult you(i have done that to taric,100-0 him with varus follow up),and due to the long stun,her low cd q,and tibber aura+tibbers aa+tibbers blocking skillshot,any retaliation will just get the adc killed aswell(in the taric case,varus ult spread to cait,my stun went back and he got a double kill),annie as a support is hell to play against.
fiddle works as a support because his kit is just loaded with cc,on top of which he has incredibly high base damage,the non skillshot fear is pretty annoying,but it is possible to buff other supports to his level.
seems too skillshot reliant,so i doubt it.
it's one thing when they nerf op support,better solutions(buffing all supports) require too much resources at the middle of a season,problems arise when they start nerfing top tier supports,(zyra) because what happens now,is that sona is strong in comparison to other supports right now,with zyra out of the picture,sona will be op,and will require nerfs,and the cycle of support destruction will begin a new.
They can touch Zyra if they want, HOWEVER, they are going about it completely wrong. I'm fine with them touching support Zyra, but their proposed changes are absurd right now and hit mid Zyra way harder than support. A complete blanket nerf to her kit is the completely wrong way to go about it. 10% CDR, base damages, range, and her ult CC all hit at once is just idiotic. Brand is only acceptable down their due to his long range poke and extremely strong base damages if he combos anything. Maybe after this round of nerfs Gragas support will come out. A slow, a knockback, and an AS debuff on his Q. Maybe he can counter the goddess that is Annie right now


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
They can touch Zyra if they want,
that's just it,they can't.
let's face it,before it was mostly thresh,sona,zyra-3 champions,not much,but pretty much minimal,after this theres just gonna be thresh and sona,they won't be top tier anymore,they will be blatantly op,face it,fiddle and annie(who also are complained about) put aside,sona is gonna be insta locked in every game(as thresh is somewhat banned,and has a skillcap)-it's not something which can be allowed,sona will have to get nerfed(followed by thresh).
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
HOWEVER, they are going about it completely wrong. I'm fine with them touching support Zyra, but their proposed changes are absurd right now and hit mid Zyra way harder than support.
that's true,but not entirely,the proposed changes are absurd for both of them,you won't see zyra anymore after this patch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
A complete blanket nerf to her kit is the completely wrong way to go about it. 10% CDR, base damages, range, and her ult CC all hit at once is just idiotic.
the ult nerf alone is too much,this is a complete overkill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Pawns Dawns View Post
Brand is only acceptable down their due to his long range poke and extremely strong base damages if he combos anything. Maybe after this round of nerfs Gragas support will come out. A slow, a knockback, and an AS debuff on his Q. Maybe he can counter the goddess that is Annie right now
gragas support you say?
i need to test that.


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montyElGato

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
you are getting on my nerves here,i've been maining support zyra for pretty much a year,and she is probably one of the most fun support due to her direct impact(instead of auras shield and heals),and the fact she is skillshot based and isn't sona faceroll.
All of your stuff like this in here, but you don't support the idea that "supports" should all be viable solo laners as well?

I hate that people somehow support balancing the game based on a stupid, contrived meta-game idea.

The game is going to get stale if that kind of stuff is allowed.


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by montyElGato View Post
All of your stuff like this in here, but you don't support the idea that "supports" should all be viable solo laners as well?

I hate that people somehow support balancing the game based on a stupid, contrived meta-game idea.

The game is going to get stale if that kind of stuff is allowed.
it depends on WHICH support,as i've said it depends on gameplay.
janna can solo lane,lulu can solo lane,zyra can solo lane,in most cases for a support to work in a solo lane it needs to have no sustain.
you need to understand something about supports,they are generally very reliable champions,lets take nunu for example.
he has no skillshots,and a ton of sustain,if he works,you will lose the lane with little you(or him) can do about it. support generally need reliablity to face other supports(it's a cycle) but out of bot lane said reliablity translates into severe lack of counter play.
this however isn't true for all supports(janna and lulu work fine as i already said).
now as i've said the tag is meaningless,it's all about the gameplay,if a support has the kit to add more varity to another lane,let him,if however it will only bring idiotic,frustrating and boring gameplay(hello nunu,soraka and taric),do not let them.
tags are meaningless,it's all about gameplay.

for example one of my most annoying period of playing this game was when taric was op and everyone knew he was op.
when i had to support i was forced to make a choice:
1)pick a champion i hate EVERYTHING about(moronic piece of faceroll garbage) and put your team in a very big advantage just by locking it.
2)pick a champion i enjoy playing and risk being in a HUGE disadvantage if the enemy picks taric,not to mention how insanely frustrating it is to lose to someone you see has no idea what skill even is,but will still win lane because he picked a moronically op champ who requires nothing more than facerolling kayboard to win lane.

I HATED THAT CHOICE,a champion with bad gameplay should never be a strong pick. riot shouldn't put people in the spot they placed me with that piece of garbage abomination.(i have heard tales release soraka was worse,but that's not the point)