@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

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TomatoTamago

Senior Member

10-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbone1 View Post
Heimerdinger would like a word.


I just don't think the turret thing works as a main damage source in the game given what we have for ranged champs. It's just too easy to kill them, and if it isn't they have always been nerfed significantly. The other thing about making Zyra's plants the main damage source is that she actually has no way to defend them. Heimerdinger can zone you off his turrets with rockets and grenades, but Zyra actually uses half of her non-ult damage just to put the plants down - or more than half, assuming you use Q to put down ranged plants and you were maxing Q in mid. Not much threat to keep them from killing the plants now.
besides,the plant do not attack the enemy champion if the enemy champion is not in the range of plant when it spawn,this make it easy to kill the plant without getting hit.also sometimes it needs zyra to AA the enemy for her plant to attack the enemy champion,the plant is too easy to be settled


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Nightseraph

Senior Member

10-09-2013

What was the thought process behind the oracle's buff? I was perfectly content as support during that glorious, sweet period when oracles got the end of season nerfs in season 2, and the season 3 death buff.
It litterally took 100 gold a minute out of support pockets come the late game.


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Trazier

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Senior Member

10-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
EDIT: I can't imagine this is the post that's downvoted. You guys really don't want her to be about plants? I'm honestly surprised - is this a "change is bad", or "Zyra is just a mage to me"?

You said "Less burst mage" Zyra burst mages slap the red key. They want more plants AND more burst O F C.


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Darklightning

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Senior Member

10-09-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
The primary thing I'd like to do to Zyra is to make her MORE about plants, and less burst mage. I don't entirely know how this will effect which lane, but I do understand the sentiment to the bottom lane vs mid lane approach. This has been why we've been conservative so far (the missile speed change was just something we should have released with).

Yep! But I'd rather weaken and risk balance on a champion if it makes the strategic niche and identity more diverse and clear.

EDIT: Again surprised! You guys prefer leaving Zyra alone, we can do that. I'm surprised more people don't want the plant mage gameplay that would be much more unique.
Morello, so much I want to say, and yet I feel I won't be heard; nevertheless here I go:
I loved Zyra on release, but I will admit she was over-powered. I was saddened when you chose to lower damage, versus raise cooldowns. I would rather have to look for windows of opportunity with her, versus a sustained damage. Why, because I am a Tactician. I don’t enjoy ADC, or other roles that require quick movement from target to the next, micro-management annoys me.

I prefer to sit back and disrupt an enemy team’s actions (HI Xerath, Lux, Veigar, Syndra, Viktor, and Swain… well you get the drift). I saw Zyra as another of these Tactician roles. A role that you don’t really acknowledge as a specific set of champions, but that I think you should. These types of champions are neither overtly mobile (like assassins typically are), nor do they pump out damage (like ADC or high casting champions like Ryze), but they have a longer range with high impact spells for disrupting a battle. They are gatekeepers for a team fight. They are a priority because they can disrupt a team fight, just like ADC is a priority because they can melt down an enemy champion quickly and keep doing it if left alone.

I wouldn’t mind if all of Zyra’s damage was in her plants but here is the problem. I hear more damage in plants and think, this means sustained damage. More damage over time makes her less able to be a Tactician, as there is no upfront immediate impact during a fight. Additionally, sustain damage can be annoying to both sides (especially for me who hates roles like ADC).

For the person dishing it out, it is unfulfilling because it is more obvious how much isn’t reaching the enemy. (Hard to explain, but look at this way: enemy kills 4 plants that would deal 25 damage each, versus 1 spell for 100 damage. You will feel less effective when you see them avoiding 4 attempts at attacking them, especially when they get gold for doing it by destroying a plant). Also, sustain damage doesn’t let you close out the kill. They usually recall and have someone cover for them.

For the enemy, it is annoying when the other player succeeds over and over again. It feels like an unrelenting force, and you end up going back to base and missing farm.

Ultimately, I find sustain champions unsatisfying to play, and extremely annoying when playing against them. These windows of opportunity become a soggy watercolor painting. No one likes soggy watercolor paintings. They fall apart the second you try to pick them up, and really have no reason to exist... just like most sustain damage champions.

tl;dr I liked how Zyra was on release (with minor changes), I wouldn't mind power in plants, but don't believe you can make her an enjoyable champion in making this shift.


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Darklightning

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Senior Member

10-09-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
AP carry? Who ever said Zyra is that? :P
Well I never looked at her and said, "There is a solid support." Then again, no one ever thinks that. They just discover that their favorite champion isn't worth anything else because they have too much utility so you nerf their actual stats into oblivion.


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Darklightning

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10-09-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
A mage who is more utility and sustained focus. I think her burst basically makes her really similar to other AP Burst mages, and waters down her identity.
This is called a support Morello.


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djump

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Senior Recruiter

10-09-2013

I'd just like to chime in that I highly support working zyra into a more niche plant mage. I think I saw something from you (morello) on zyra just after her release that you wished you had gone deeper on her uniqueness than you did. After all the hype pre-release about her being like nothing before, I was disappointed too.

I think it would be awesome to go back and push this boundary again. People like her as she is, but I think you could give us something even better. I hope you get the chance to do so! =)


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Darklightning

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10-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Oh - AP Carry and mage are being used synonymously here. I see the confusion. She is a mage, I define "AP Carry" as primarily damage-focused mage.
So to me a mage that does no damage is called support... so ya, not thrilled with your definition. Now to be fair you said primarily damage-focused, so I suppose you could be imagining the Tactician role that I enjoy playing, as that isn't focused on raw damage but more of a team fighting control agent.


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Darklightning

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Senior Member

10-09-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is why we're systemically fixing this in preseason. It's going to be MADNESS.
I still feel like the one thing that bugs me is that as a support it doesn't feel good. I don't have the same power level as mid, nor do I get to do the things I enjoy doing - killing people. Kills go to ADC... but this is a conversation for a different thread.

I want Mid Zyra to stay relevant, and I feel she is on a thin razor blade right now.


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Maou

Senior Member

10-09-2013

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Originally Posted by Darklightning View Post
I still feel like the one thing that bugs me is that as a support it doesn't feel good. I don't have the same power level as mid, nor do I get to do the things I enjoy doing - killing people. Kills go to ADC... but this is a conversation for a different thread.

I want Mid Zyra to stay relevant, and I feel she is on a thin razor blade right now.
She's already a pretty niche mid laner choice. She's one of the most position intensive based mid laners like Ori and Syndra. She's a strong support but she has just as much kill potential as someone like thresh / leona.