@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ohwhynot

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-08-2013

I play Zyra mid, and I have to say that the only thing keeping her around there is the range you say you want to nerf. If she can't farm from range she just gets eaten by assassins that jump over all of her very delayed spells. Sure, you can toss seeds right on top of you so they can damage the assassin when they jump on you, but plants alone don't do enough.

I'm already rushing a giants belt for rylais with a couple of dorans to try to survive in this assassin meta. I typically still lose mid early on, and just make it up with the AoE ulti stun in team fights. I can do that with any AoE stun champ though, as evidenced by my comparable Annie win rate.(And my Galio, Sona, Viegar winrates, etc. I don't main champs as much as I main AoE stuns...Zyra is just currently in meta. All the same dish with slightly different flavors)

Really though, Zyra's my most played this season, with 70% win rate. I've played her both a bunch in mid as well as support. I'm not just pulling this out of thin air.

If more power is shifted to plants, it has to be enough to have kill potential, otherwise it will really hurt her because of how important the range is to her laning. It'll be like nerfing Xerath's or Karthus's range. Both have delayed abilities good for harassing and farming as well, and would suffer similarly from losing range. Look at Brand, one range nerf brought him from pretty competitive to almost never seen.(The prevalence of Kassadin, AP Sion, Ori and Morgana at the time was already making it tough to play him)

As for bottom, it's really just getting to the point that people just care about CC and some sort of ability to enable a kill, IE tibbers, fid ulti, sona/zyra ulti. Notice that Lulu and Leona are hardly played and lulu lacks any real kill potential, and Leona, while having the CC, does not bring the damage a tibbers ulti brings. They are balanced, because of all the other CC/utility they bring, but competitive play isn't concerned with balance as much as they are concerned with filling a niche for what they need done; Kill opponent in 2v1 lane, peel for carry, ward. Any of them can do the last one, the second is relatively easy to find in supports, but the first one is tough. That's why they're bringing AP Carries. ...Also, they do it for style points.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fraux

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post

tl;dr
- continue in your planned direction of making her less bursty and more sustained damage oriented with her plants. Downvotes mean nothing in a world where people will downvote a thread calling Diana and Zyra OP in their releases. Revel in your downvotes as it means you are doing something right.
Or, how about Riot stops destroying champions and turning them into something completely different because "that is the direction we want to take".

If they're going to spend the time and resources to change a champion, they might as well just release a new champ with the desired kit instead of screwing over everyone that has bought and loves the champ in its current state (in terms of playstyle).

Just look at how Karma turned out; old Karma players loved her AOE heal and the low-HP bait playstyle. Riot took that all away and turned Karma into a completely different champ. Players that loved playing her pre-rework hated the changes, new players still don't pick her.

The Garen VU is yet another example of Riot going "we know what's best and screw what the fans think". Garen fans liked the old animations (punch, front flip, ectr), new players didn't care, so all the changes did was piss off Garen players for no apparent reason because "that's the direction we want to take".

That mentality seriously needs to die off already. I just don't see the benefit of implementing changes fans of a champion won't like, and new players won't care about, just for the sake of fulfilling someone's idea of what a champion is "supposed to be like".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rockman

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanagloria View Post
Basing a champion design around (terrible) AI seems like a poor idea in my eyes. I liked Zyra because the plants were a core tool to use while still allowing me to control my own damage with skillshots. Remove her base damage/ratios and make her depend on plants who have no ****ing idea what they're doing and you have an unplayable champ.
Guess Heim can go cry then.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ohwhynot

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockMan EXE View Post
Guess Heim can go cry then.
Yeah, actually on release many compared Zyra to a heimer that worked. She couldn't be ignored, and her plants not lasting long meant the adc wouldn't take the trouble to one shot them during a fight like they do for heimer turrets.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ginga

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraux View Post
Or, how about Riot stops destroying champions and turning them into something completely different because "that is the direction we want to take".

If they're going to spend the time and resources to change a champion, they might as well just release a new champ with the desired kit instead of screwing over everyone that has bought and loves the champ in its current state (in terms of playstyle).

Just look at how Karma turned out; old Karma players loved her AOE heal and the low-HP bait playstyle. Riot took that all away and turned Karma into a completely different champ. Players that loved playing her pre-rework hated the changes, new players still don't pick her.

The Garen VU is yet another example of Riot going "we know what's best and screw what the fans think". Garen fans liked the old animations (punch, front flip, ectr), new players didn't care, so all the changes did was piss off Garen players for no apparent reason because "that's the direction we want to take".

That mentality seriously needs to die off already. I just don't see the benefit of implementing changes fans of a champion won't like, and new players won't care about, just for the sake of fulfilling someone's idea of what a champion is "supposed to be like".
But the new Karma is actually balanceable, that's the main idea behind it. The old Karma couldn't be balanced with simple numbers being switched around, or else they would have done that.


Also, I actually like the new Garen's new model. 0.0


I mean, yes, I hate his splash art, his face, and his head overall. But I really like the attack animations of his new model. It's so much more fluid how he slices left to right to left to right. One issue I've always had with melee champions was how stilted their attack animations looked. The old Garen sliced at his opponent, and then returns to his neutral position for the most part, and then goes in combat stance to slice again. Or he punches and returns to neutral position. Same goes for how Tryndamere always returns his sword to the "dragging behind him" position after each and every single overhead slice he makes. These animation flaws are all relics of the past. Now we should have more attack animations like Nautilus' after he activates his DoT ability.


Atleast it's miles better than Sejuani's visual update.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fraux

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
But the new Karma is actually balanceable, that's the main idea.


Also, I actually like the new Garen's model. 0.0


I mean, yes, I hate his splash art, his face, and his head overall. But I really like the attack animations of his new model. It's so much more fluid how he slices left to right to left to right. One issue I've always had with melee champions was how stilted their attack animations looked. The old Garen sliced at his opponent, and then returns to his neutral position for the most part, and then goes in combat stance to slice again. Or he punches and returns to neutral position. Same goes for how Tryndamere always returns his sword to the "dragging behind him" position after each and every single overhead slice he makes.


Atleast it's miles better than Sejuani's visual update.
Exactly how was old Karma "unbalanceable"...? We're not talking about a champ like Irelia with an inherently broken design. Even if her old kit was harder to balance, they could at least have kept some of her old playstyle intact.

As for the VU, that's your opinion. I just think it would be nice if Riot stopped forcing their opinions onto fans of a champion when its pretty clear they disagree with the changes being implemented (especially when it comes to things like animations that have no impact on gameplay; why change what people like just to satisfy one's vision of "champ is supposed to be like this, screw what you guys say").


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GodKilleR 999

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Honestly this was caused due too much catering to the adc: ''Oh no, I can't 1v1 the support even though he has weaker items than me, what do''. Supports should be able to easily deal with adc til mid game, but they were all nerfed because of that or other reasons. Not surprising that no one wants to play supports.

Not to mention that even if you do manage to get items you have close to no choice and the items for which you do have a choice can't be upgraded into the late game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lunar Lightning

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraux View Post
Or, how about Riot stops destroying champions and turning them into something completely different because "that is the direction we want to take".

If they're going to spend the time and resources to change a champion, they might as well just release a new champ with the desired kit instead of screwing over everyone that has bought and loves the champ in its current state (in terms of playstyle).

Just look at how Karma turned out; old Karma players loved her AOE heal and the low-HP bait playstyle. Riot took that all away and turned Karma into a completely different champ. Players that loved playing her pre-rework hated the changes, new players still don't pick her.

The Garen VU is yet another example of Riot going "we know what's best and screw what the fans think". Garen fans liked the old animations (punch, front flip, ectr), new players didn't care, so all the changes did was piss off Garen players for no apparent reason because "that's the direction we want to take".

That mentality seriously needs to die off already. I just don't see the benefit of implementing changes fans of a champion won't like, and new players won't care about, just for the sake of fulfilling someone's idea of what a champion is "supposed to be like".
this


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aerothal

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohwhynot View Post
I play Zyra mid, and I have to say that the only thing keeping her around there is the range you say you want to nerf. If she can't farm from range she just gets eaten by assassins that jump over all of her very delayed spells. Sure, you can toss seeds right on top of you so they can damage the assassin when they jump on you, but plants alone don't do enough.
...(more look at original post)
Thank you! you bring it to the point!
I am in the same boat. I main Zyra support and mid (not as high a win-rate as you)and i totally agree:
Nerfing plant range would just make her even more tasty to assassins than she already is.
I think if you play and build her right, she is actually in a pretty good spot at the moment.
Please don't "balance" her around the 30 Pro-Players in the world that can play her to her complete potential (but only as support in the professional support meta).
That is so not representative of the other 2 million summoners(approx. 10% play-rate according to lolking) that play her at a 51.4% win-rate.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

matrinox

Senior Member

10-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritofryu View Post
hmm the whole point of an apc is heavy burst dmg and you are going to get rid of that, kk whats next when a tank atks you you heal for the damage he does?
Anivia, Cassiopeia, Swain, both once powerful APC's nowhere near that bursty.