@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Maou

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
I just explained why she isn't the same as Heimer like, in the post directly above yours...
Just because she can place her plantings more efficiently and quicker doesn't mean that they are anymore reliable than Heimers turrets. She will still be very similar to heimer if they shift the focus to her plants. Her being able to place them more freely doesn't change the fact that immovable npcs are a mechanic that is unreliable.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

exec3

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is why we're systemically fixing this in preseason. It's going to be MADNESS.
Saying it this way, gets me so hopeful and excited for the changes you have no idea. I hope so much these support and jungle changes are as good as the Season 3 item rework and I just can't wait for details.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tyrannus0

Recruiter

10-08-2013

Morello, why hasn't there been a red to community thread on all of the champions, and the state of balance as a whole?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dig Dux

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
For all those worried about Zyra's plant focus crawling into Heimerdinger's niche. That's not an issue at all, it's never an issue.

Their kits aren't completely identical. And if you think a more plant focused Zyra would really take away Heimer's niche, then you should also be complaining about Brand being kicked out of his niche by Annie. Or Draven kicking Miss Fortune out of her niche as an early game ADC. Or Elise taking away Nidalee's niche just because she can transform too. Or Rengar of Kha'zix being kicked out by the other's niche. Or Talon being kicked out of his niche by Zed. etc. etc.
Composition/Division Fallacy


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tortferngatr

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is why we're systemically fixing this in preseason. It's going to be MADNESS.
Seeing how crazy the Season 2->3 changes were, I shall relish it.

Now make [s]Karthus's Defile deal damage to towers[/s] CDR count as bonus attack speed against towers (like how AP can sometimes count as bonus damage against towers). I want my Karthus/Ryze/Cassiopeia FOTM :p


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dig Dux

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortferngatr View Post

CDR count as bonus attack speed against towers (like how AP can sometimes count as bonus damage against towers).
Heimerdinger may be viable yet.....


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ginga

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veinne View Post
Just because she can place her plantings more efficiently and quicker doesn't mean that they are anymore reliable than Heimers turrets. She will still be very similar to heimer if they shift the focus to her plants. Her being able to place them more freely doesn't change the fact that immovable npcs are a mechanic that is unreliable.
Wen you make a claim like that, you really have to back it up. The high CD on Heimer's turrets and how he can only drop it in melee range is a huge detriment to his turrets. Those 2 are massive contributing factors to his overall viability. Both of those aren't an issue for Zyra.


That speed and efficiency DOES directly equate to them being far more reliable than Heimer's who can only set them at his feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderworldH4des View Post
I have tried that with Zyra as well.

1 or 2 hits by plants will not do anything, that's not doing much damage with her plants unless you were able to hit them with your Q damage as well, but if you haven't read, Morello was also talking about nerfing her range, and her E snare missle speed is already slow, so I highly doubt you will be doing anything to anyone in lane with just 1 or 2 damage from plants when the other person can simply blow you up because she is the squishest champion next to sona, and the slowest champion in lane next to anivia or so.

You won't be getting any kills with barely any damage in lane, simply because the other laner can also just come back with full hp or so because you weren't able to finish off your opponent because your plants are immovable pets that will attack champions if you were able to land Q/E on them OR you AA said champion and they are in range of plants, and ofc, you can't AA them IF you are out of range as well and plants will just change focus to minions.

Plants and shifting her power to plants only sounds cool, but that's not what she should rely on, otherwise you will have to have her utlimate give her plants even more steroids and increases in atk speed her plants get.

Also, even though Zyra generates seeds faster, doesn't mean they will automatically become plants, you have to have your E and Q off cooldown as well. and ofc your ultimate too if you want them to get the atk speed steroid to be able to put out any real DPS in a teamfight.
This argument lies solely under the conditions of the current Zyra. You say her plants deal barely any damage, but you're forgetting 2 important things.


1. Those "barely any damage" are still free damage, and quite significant for being free as well. Especially against someone like Kassadin, Fizz, or Zed who will take quite a bit more hits than ranged mids.

2. We don't know if they'll still be "barely any damage" after they shift her powers to her plants, that's the main point in shifting power to her plants. For all we know, her plants may even end up tanky enough to take several hits to destroy. Remember, he's planning on making Zyra more focused on her plants! If her plants really are too weak, they're definitely going to be stronger after the change.


Also, forcing your opponent to recall is a good thing. May not be as good as a kill, but it means you get ahead in gold and experience nonetheless.

Lastly, Zyra's cooldowns are really low. Chances are when you have seeds ready, you WILL have a Q or E ready.


The only thing that could worry you slightly is Morello's comment on her spell's ranges. Of course, we don't know how her kit would change or whether they'd also alter her stats to compensate for it. That is the sole thing you can question Morello on.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dig Dux

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Dux View Post
Heimerdinger is about his pets, his turrets, they are supposed to be his niche.

Having another champion just walk into that niche and boot him out is offensive to anyone who respects Heimerdinger.

The plants are currently too inconsistent in terms of being useful on a dps mage, due to their very limited lifespan when under pressure.

Zyra brings to the table a swarm of vines, trapping the opponent and doing the damage, the plants have other uses as zoning or vision tools.

Try to keep that in mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7eQKSf0LmY

^ this

not plants vs zombies


Think Venus Flytrap rather than pew pew pew turrets




Zyra is a predator, not a gardener.



There are several things here, the first is Zyra's identity, and the problem of converting Zyra into a dps mage without destroying that identity, that of a predator, secondly, the unreliability of Ai in situations where you cannot direct them directly, thirdly, the inability of a squishy target (plants) to consistently output damage, when they quickly die. Killing plants would completely destroy dps zyra's output.

I won't even mention heimerdinger this time.


jk

buff HIM!!!!!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dig Dux

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderswine View Post
if you transfer power from cc to her plants it will ruin who zyra is as a support,whilst if you transfer burst damage to her plants you will destroy her viability as a support.
this isn't going anywhere good.

Burst damage on her plants..... hmmmm that could actually work, at least in terms of a viability perspective.


If the plants applied a strong cc when they were created, I think then you would have a chance of moving zyra's damage to the plants, since that would keep the target in range for damage, and would allow the plants to last longer.

Reminds me of a super tiny tibbers

Heimerdinger turret does this (reverse dps scale), could work with spamable pets. I was thinking of a thornmail for the plants

Imagine if zyra's ultimate was a vine web that connected her plants. (punishes opponents for leaving plants)

Sadly removing Zyra's cc would require her to gain massive damage to compensate or would force her to become a super tank since everyone could burst her down in 2s flat.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lunar Lightning

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-08-2013

please just leave mid zyra alone