@Morello: When you consider nerfing Support Zyra. Just remember one crucial thing....

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Ishinokao

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Can her plants be made less retarded?

Sometimes it takes almost half it's duration before it decides to start attacking something.

And if she's going to be made to revolve more around her plants (which I'd love) they need to not ignore champions over minions. x_x


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Aerothal

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Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishinokao View Post
Can her plants be made less retarded?

Sometimes it takes almost half it's duration before it decides to start attacking something.

And if she's going to be made to revolve more around her plants (which I'd love) they need to not ignore champions over minions. x_x
you do know that you can make the plants attack any target of your choice by throwing an aa out, right?
Did you also know that the plant will attack an enemy champ right away if you hit him/her with the spell that activates the plant?


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Ginga

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Senior Member

10-08-2013

For all those worried about Zyra's plant focus crawling into Heimerdinger's niche. That's not an issue at all, it's never an issue.

Their kits aren't completely identical. And if you think a more plant focused Zyra would really take away Heimer's niche, then you should also be complaining about Brand being kicked out of his niche by Annie. Or Draven kicking Miss Fortune out of her niche as an early game ADC. Or Elise taking away Nidalee's niche just because she can transform too. Or Rengar of Kha'zix being kicked out by the other's niche. Or Talon being kicked out of his niche by Zed. etc. etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
EDIT: I can't imagine this is the post that's downvoted. You guys really don't want her to be about plants? I'm honestly surprised - is this a "change is bad", or "Zyra is just a mage to me"?
I like the plant-focused sustained DPS focus direction you have in mind! Don't be discouraged by downvotes!! There's too many mages that's all about bursts nowadays, I'd totally be cool about her being 90% sustained DPS! I, Ginga, fully support your desire to make her more sustained damage focused! (because seriously, if I wanted to play a combo-y burst mage I'd just buy Annie, Ahri, or literally any other burst mage in the game)


Anyways, everyone who is against this direction you plan on going are only against it because they have no faith in her plants. From what I've read in this thread, people do not bother putting points in her W nor do they bother with any CDR at all. So to them, they see plants as 3-hit point pea-shooters who are gone when they're dead.

A Zyra that focuses more on her W and builds some CDR can keep a plant up indefinitely...although it does kind of suck how they disappear against AoE heavy teams, but that's about it.


Also it looks like people don't know plants can be controlled with Zyra's auto-attack hence the complaints about their "retarded AI" (you censor s.e.x but not retarded?)



Screw the downvotes. GD downvoted a "Diana is OP" thread to oblivion during her release, shouldn't that give you a good idea of how meaningful the votes are anyways? I got downvoted for suggesting MF's R should be physical damage back when it was still magical damage, yet now people are totally cool with her R being physical damage.People downvoted threads suggesting to build Rengar AP days before AP Rengar became FOTM. People downvoted those who claim Ezreal was OP MONTHS before PFE was released.


tl;dr
- continue in your planned direction of making her less bursty and more sustained damage oriented with her plants. Downvotes mean nothing in a world where people will downvote a thread calling Diana and Zyra OP in their releases. Revel in your downvotes as it means you are doing something right.


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Maou

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Morello, as someone who has pulled themselves from Silver III to Plat V using primarily Zyra mid, I'm extremely afraid of any changes that could cause her to fall off of an already assassin based mid game meta. To me Zyra as a mid laner is the definition of balanced. She has her strengths and is actually very counterable in the current assassin meta, Fizz, Kass, Zed, Ahri. She doesn't have the safety as someone like an Orianna and relies on precise positioning with movement and your seeds. Her seeds are what make her unique but she shouldn't be nerfed to define that uniqueness. She is definitely best when played as an ability power carry.

I know my opinion doesn't matter, but shifting her to be more plant oriented isn't a good answer. If anything I'd prefer higher ratio's on her Q/E and lower ratios on plants as those seem to be the most threatening mechanic when she is played as a support.

But in my opinion, the reason she is such a dominant pick as a support is because other supports are lackluster. Taric, Nami, even Janna don't feel as powerful as Zyra, Fiddles, etc. I don't feel a nerf of Zyra will fix the problems that are actually affecting the support meta, which is why I would assume she's being looked at.


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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
snip
That's the thing, sustained DPS doesn't work when her plants are immovable pets who die in 1 or 2 hits, and completely demolished in AoE in teamfights, there is a reason Heimer is a niche pick. We don't want her to be a niche pick. She can't be a sustained DPS mage unless you can spam her spells like Cass/Karthus/Ryze.

She is a burst champion and her plants are there for zoning/vision and providing small DPS while you wait for CD's or kiting a bit with her slow plants.

Sustained DPS WILL kill Zyra when she has to completely rely on those plants.


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spiderswine

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
T
EDIT: I can't imagine this is the post that's downvoted. You guys really don't want her to be about plants? I'm honestly surprised - is this a "change is bad", or "Zyra is just a mage to me"?
we just like the spot where she is now.
and yes,to a very large extent this is because "change is bad",zyra has been by far my favorite support for over a year now(am still mad about the no skin thingy,but that's something else) in other words i like her more than the 100+ champs in this game,any randomization(aka change) will probably make her less fun for me,i do not like that.

edit:let me elaborate on that
first of all what's fun about zyra(as support),isn't the plants,it's the amount of cc,if plants will get more damage at the cost of cc,i will hate that change.
second,zyra's laning phase is a bit on the weak side compared to other supports(live with it GD),reducing her burst and transferring power to her plants will make it so zyra can't kill in lane,but still has no sustain and is squishy as hell so she can easily die,which will destroy her viability as a support(as a major part of the supports job is to secure adcs farm early game)
in other words,if you transfer power from cc to her plants it will ruin who zyra is as a support,whilst if you transfer burst damage to her plants you will destroy her viability as a support.
another option(and this is the dumbest one in my opinion) is to transfer some of her already low range into more plant power,which will basically make her a squishy,skillshot based annie,who just get's evaporated before she can do anything,there's no sense in cc if you can't have the positioning to utilize it,which you won't if her already low range is reduced.
this isn't going anywhere good.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderworldH4des View Post
That's the thing, sustained DPS doesn't work when her plants are immovable pets who die in 1 or 2 hits, and completely demolished in AoE in teamfights, there is a reason Heimer is a niche pick. We don't want her to be a niche pick. She can't be a sustained DPS mage unless you can spam her spells like Cass/Karthus/Ryze.

She is a burst champion and her plants are there for zoning/vision and providing small DPS while you wait for CD's or kiting a bit with her slow plants.

Sustained DPS WILL kill Zyra when she has to completely rely on those plants.
Again, you're not looking at the bigger picture.

Heimer's weakness doesn't apply to Zyra nearly as badly because she can summon her plants from range unlike Heimer who drops them next to himself. Even if you can move away from her plant's range, they're still going to land 1-2 shots on your. That duration they're running from your plants is free damage. Heimerdinger's turrets are heavily restricted by their unique cooldowns, but Zyra generates her seeds at a much more rapid rate. In short, Zyra and Heimerdinger are different champions. Her plants may be far weaker than the turrets, but they are much easier to use as well.


They can get killed in teamfights, yes, but if you build a bit of CDR and level up her W, you can bring up a new plant almost immediately after the current ones die off. She's not like Heimer who takes forever to bring up new turrets.


But most importantly...remember what Morello said.

Quote:
The primary thing I'd like to do to Zyra is to make her MORE about plants, and less burst mage.

Let us assume they ARE too weak atm. This sounds like Riot is aware of that, this sounds to me like, when they make her kit more plant-focused, her plants will likely be stronger than they currently are. That sounds like exactly what he wants to do. People are complaining about Morello making Zyra's plants stronger when they themselves are complaining her plant are too weak...and others are complaining about the plant's AI while not knowing they can control her plants.


Lastly, there's uniqueness. Why do you want another burst mage? Zyra has so much potential to be unique, she can be a great DPS mage. If Riot wants to veer her further into the DPS section, that sounds like a great thing for her and the game's variety.


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Maou

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderworldH4des View Post
That's the thing, sustained DPS doesn't work when her plants are immovable pets who die in 1 or 2 hits, and completely demolished in AoE in teamfights, there is a reason Heimer is a niche pick. We don't want her to be a niche pick. She can't be a sustained DPS mage unless you can spam her spells like Cass/Karthus/Ryze.

She is a burst champion and her plants are there for zoning/vision and providing small DPS while you wait for CD's or kiting a bit with her slow plants.

Sustained DPS WILL kill Zyra when she has to completely rely on those plants.
This is it right here. Nerfing her kit and buffing her plants will turn her into heimer class. Relying on immovable pets is an unreliable mechanic. Her damage is on par with every other utility mid laner like Orianna. If you are going to make her more "plant" based, you need to have the following:

-Lower Seed Cool down
-Stronger plantling base damage
-Ultimate needs to increase the damage AND increase the attack speed of plants.
-Plants need to be more reliable in team fights (less susceptible to aoe damage, higher hp values)


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Ginga

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Senior Member

10-08-2013

I just explained why she isn't the same as Heimer like, in the post directly above yours...


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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

10-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
Again, you're not looking at the bigger picture.

Heimer's weakness doesn't apply to Zyra nearly as badly because she can summon her plants from range unlike Heimer who drops them next to himself. Even if you can move away from her plant's range, they're still going to land 1-2 shots on your. That duration they're running from your plants is free damage. Heimerdinger's turrets are heavily restricted by their unique cooldowns, but Zyra generates her seeds at a much more rapid rate. In short, Zyra and Heimerdinger are different champions. Her plants may be far weaker than the turrets, but they are much easier to use as well.


They can get killed in teamfights, yes, but if you build a bit of CDR and level up her W, you can bring up a new plant almost immediately after the current ones die off.


But most importantly...remember what Morello said.




Let us assume they ARE too weak atm. This sounds like Riot is aware of that, this sounds to me like, when they make her kit more plant-focused, her plants will likely be stronger than they currently are. That sounds like exactly what he wants to do. People are complaining about Morello making Zyra's plants stronger when they themselves are complaining her plant are too weak...and others are complaining about the plant's AI while not knowing they can control her plants.


And seriously, consider maxing her W and getting some CDR on her, with Q maxed second, you can constantly bring up your plants, and the damage they do is underestimated.
I have tried that with Zyra as well.

1 or 2 hits by plants will not do anything, that's not doing much damage with her plants unless you were able to hit them with your Q damage as well, but if you haven't read, Morello was also talking about nerfing her range, and her E snare missle speed is already slow, so I highly doubt you will be doing anything to anyone in lane with just 1 or 2 damage from plants when the other person can simply blow you up because she is the squishest champion next to sona, and the slowest champion in lane next to anivia or so.

You won't be getting any kills with barely any damage in lane, simply because the other laner can also just come back with full hp or so because you weren't able to finish off your opponent because your plants are immovable pets that will attack champions if you were able to land Q/E on them OR you AA said champion and they are in range of plants, and ofc, you can't AA them IF you are out of range as well and plants will just change focus to minions.

Plants and shifting her power to plants only sounds cool, but that's not what she should rely on, otherwise you will have to have her utlimate give her plants even more steroids and increases in atk speed her plants get.

Also, even though Zyra generates seeds faster, doesn't mean they will automatically become plants, you have to have your E and Q off cooldown as well. and ofc your ultimate too if you want them to get the atk speed steroid to be able to put out any real DPS in a teamfight.