Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Riot should adopt a DOTA-like drafting style

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheAtheistGod

Senior Member

10-05-2013

Quote:
Blues:
Yeah, a lot of my friends who aren't as into League as I am or just play it casually and don't care much about the competitive aspect aren't very enthusiastic about watching champ select.
I personally don't mind.

I'm not very well versed in DotA things and I didn't watch TI (regrettably), how much time do they have for each phase? Is it 60 seconds like LoL?

I only know about this from when I watched last years TI (and we had a discussion about this while watching Worlds). I didn't pay attention to the time, I was busy asking the people I was watching it with questions and other things.


It's 40 seconds for each Pick/Ban and an additional 1:40 overtime for each team that can be used whenever you want. Note that the time is for each individual pick/ban; when you make two picks in a row, you have 40 seconds for the first and then another 40 seconds for the second.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Maeven

Senior Member

10-05-2013

Quote:
Blues:

Its not perfect, just an example but it would allow "Froggen to get Anivia" (Riot used the example of 'Froggen not ever getting Anivia' if bans were increased.)

It would also just add a whole new level to champ select.

Sure it adds depth, but is it good depth? Under the system you proposed, professional level picks and bans would probably look something like this:

A: Ban a signature champion from B
B: Ban a signature champion from A
A: Ban a signature champion from B
B: Ban a signature champion from A
A: Pick
B: Pick, Pick

Let's stop this here for a second. What does another ban phase after 3 picks have gone down mean? It means that B is at a severe disadvantage after revealing more information about their comp than A. It's much easier to reveal nothing about your comp when you're only picking one champion since you can just pick a high tier support that fits in nearly any comp. Because there are more bans, A is being given more tools to disrupt B while B can only guess at what A is trying to do at this point. Leading to:

A: Targeted ban directed a B's potential team comp, given B's scouted champion pool.
B: Ban a signature champion from A
A: Pick, Pick
B: Pick, Pick

At this point B might elect to throw a curveball and pick something unexpected, but that is pretty much the only answer to A having effectively 1 more ban than them. What B ends up with is a sub-optimal comp in one direction or another.

A: Targeted ban directed a B's potential team comp, given B's scouted champion pool.
B: Targeted ban directed a A's potential team comp, given A's scouted champion pool.
A: Pick, Pick
B: Pick

B having the last pick gives them something to deal with the fully revealed team A comp, but if A is smart, the last ban would have been hitting whatever B would have wanted to pick in this space, e.g. Gragas vs a heavy engage comp. Either way though, the last pick from B would almost certainly have to be reactionary and most likely sub-optimal for B's comp.

So yes, this format would absolutely change up champ select and give it more dynamic elements, but I feel like 2nd pick/2nd ban is severely crippled by how the rotation here works. Let's build on this foundation though, what can be done to alleviate/eliminate the problem I just described?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

godmode rum

Senior Member

10-05-2013

lol why does league want all the things of dota except the game itself. quit pilfering my **** riot, stop buttraping icefrog and get off of volvo's dick.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheAtheistGod

Senior Member

10-05-2013

You realize that pick/ban phases wouldn't be lopsided like that? You are complaining about something that wouldn't even happen. Sure, Team A picks 5 heroes, Team B bans 4 heroes, Team A bans 4 heroes, Team B picks 5 heroes, would be unfair, but that isn't even part of the discussion.

Dota's old pick/ban:
3 Bans, 3 Picks, 2 Bans, 2 Picks

Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban
Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban
Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban

Team 1 Pick
Team 2 Pick
Team 2 Pick
Team 1 Pick
Team 1 Pick
Team 2 Pick

Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban
Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban

Team 1 Pick
Team 2 Pick
Team 1 Pick
Team 2 Pick

The current Dota Pick/Ban:
2 Bans, 2 Picks, 2 Bans, 2 Picks, 1 Ban, 1 Pick

Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban
Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban

Team 1 Pick
Team 2 Pick
Team 2 Pick
Team 1 Pick

Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban
Team 1 Ban
Team 2 Ban

Team 2 Pick
Team 1 Pick
Team 2 Pick
Team 1 Pick

Team 2 Ban
Team 1 Ban

Team 2 Pick
Team 1 Pick


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bLues

Senior Member

10-05-2013

Quote:
Maeven:
.


There is nothing to combat that without changing some (a lot) of aspects in the actual game. Or maybe not, you never know what might pop up. League is still a very young game.
It would be healthy change. It would push the game forward. It has gotten entirely too stale for it being in such an early stage of its life.

The reason it works in DotA is because there are mounds of different strategies and combos to run and champions/players are just overall more flexible. But even if League (in its current state) was as old as DotA, I 100% guarantee you'd see the same **** you see now. There isn't much innovation without outside interference to steer it along (patching). And most of that is unintentional.

There is an extremely different example but I feel it might apply to this.
A little over a year ago there was an IEM tournament. The format was iirc:

A: Ban
B: Ban Ban
A: Ban Ban
B: Ban Pick
A: Pick Pick

Or something of the sort. I don't think it was very fair at the time but no significant problems arised. People adapted to the format. Just like they would if this was implemented.


I also want to just throw this out there: League isn't very complex. Its limited in strategies and champion synergy while at the same time a lot of champions work in said strategies. I doubt your scenario (while its the optimal drafting strategy) would play out as smooth as you think. It would liven things up, however.

EDIT: Want to touch on Blue/Purple side debate. This is relevant. Blue side has always had a better win-rate and is usually favored when picking initial sides. Give Purple side the "unfair" drafting advantage and see what happens. Just coming up with ideas here.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Devi Freak Mint

Senior Member

10-05-2013

The Annie and Renekton bans were enough to throw Royal Club on a tilt. Why do we need more bans when signature champions/core picks getting taken away can already ruin a series.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bLues

Senior Member

10-05-2013

Quote:
Devi Freak Mint:
The Annie and Renekton bans were enough to throw Royal Club on a tilt. Why do we need more bans when signature champions/core picks getting taken away can already ruin a series.


Because there are less initial bans before picking if you follow this. Meaning a chance Annie/Renekton won't get banned.

And my real reply to this: Expand your champion pool.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Andymion

Senior Member

10-05-2013

This sounds much more interesting and like it could shake up the meta and champion rosters. I hope Riot considers something like this.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bLues

Senior Member

10-05-2013

bamps


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Devi Freak Mint

Senior Member

10-05-2013

Quote:
Blues:
Because there are less initial bans before picking if you follow this. Meaning a chance Annie/Renekton won't get banned.

And my real reply to this: Expand your champion pool.


Adding bans will not change anything. No matter how well balanced the game is, there will always be champions that fit the competitive meta better. Eight bans is effectively banning ~20% of the competitive pool at any given time. And adding gimmicks doesn't add to the experience a whole lot. Respect bans vs counterbanning. How does it not simply move the "problem"?