Another overly complex champion that makes Invoker look easy.

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SlyGoat

Member

12-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppetSoul View Post
Not complex at all.

40% passive dodge is rigged.
Having several clones that also have 40% passive dodge is also rigged.
Having +150% damage and +150 damage per attack from Malady is rigged.

Manipulation is a souped up Taunt with a longer duration and a much shorter cooldown.

Hypnosis is pretty rigged as well.

Ultimate ganker. WHY you ask?

Get ~20% cd reduction from runes and masteries. Rush a frozen heart first item. By the time you're level10, you can now grab any hero and pull them from wherever they are on the map all the way back and into your fountain, and there's nothing they can do about it (because control grabs can't be cleansed and aren't shortened by merc treads). Obviously it'd be more efficient to just pull them into a tower and dryhump them for 20 seconds, but you COULD pull them into the fountain if you felt the need.

I'm guessing you didn't actually read the abilities/don't understand how they work, so I'ma disregard this.


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SlyGoat

Member

12-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightstriker View Post
...epic spacing
i feel it makes it easier to read

this is not a bump


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treehugger

Member

12-24-2009

There are several problems with this champion.

1. There are ready a lot of complains about high dps heroes with utilities (I believe you contributed to that yourself)

This guy brings more single target dps than Yi/Trynd with his ult and some extremely potent single target disables. Sure, creating those images can take a while but since the images don't have duration, you can stack them up from laning or jungling and then enter a gank/team fight with 5 of them up and ready to go. If you land Q or W on someone, they are dead if they don't have 2-3 teammates around. (2-3 teammates because with Q and W, Revenant can disable one guy for 8 seconds or 2 guys for 4 seconds each). This brings up another problem.

2. Where exactly are the images placed around Revenant? If images are placed spread out around him, then he counters aoe strategy. Did you want a single target dps with built in disable and aoe counter? If his images are bunch up together, then the situation becomes more complex.
With Q and W, he pretty much take out two enemies in a fight for 4 seconds. At 600 and 900 range, his spell range beats most casters, allowing him to start the fight first.
There's a lot more scenarios I could go over (but typing essays on forums are for little girls) so I'll sum up. Where exacly his is weakness?
Low hp?
Image counters single target damage/disables
Image placements and buit-in initiation somewhat counters aoes/disables
Poor farming? He's ranged
Image has to walk up to attack? He's ranged


I'm not a fan of heroes that relies on images. They walk a dangerous path of being outright neutralize or overly powerful. Numbers are actually very important here.


And this champion looks fairly simple dude.


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SlyGoat

Member

12-25-2009

Thank you for the harsh criticism. Most people don't put any effort or pinpoint any real problem areas with theirs.

Manipulation probably needs something more attached to it; possibly just, the target will attack enemies at random when not moving, so it isn't a complete disable unless you're guiding them. Maybe even having the caster take some damage that was intended for the target until the link breaks. I agree lots of hard CC is problematic even when it's easily broken.

Hypnosis I'm less sure about, the rules for using it are fairly rigid.

Due to some changing mechanics, single target disables still fully stun you and all of your illusions, so that still acts as a counter; perhaps 200% damage taken is too low for AoE to be a serious threat to the hero, but that isn't until end-game, and Shaco's clone dies awfully fast for only taking what, 130% damage?

Low HP is an intended weakness and I realize it's one that's easily remedied, but at the cost of carry potential.

Keep in mind, most if not all casters in the game (finding it difficult to think of one) have at least one fairly powerful AoE damage; all physical DPS are capable of purchasing a Tiamat to counter his images.

I designed him with Atropos from DotA in mind with his disables; yes, they can take two enemies out of the fight for a very long time, or one for even longer, but neither of them is a completely uncounterable hard CC like the majority of them are.

As for simple; I respectfully disagree. Have you seen the majority of carries in LoL? (and most of the other characters, actually.) I'd say as far as this game's characters go, he's pretty complex.


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PuppetSoul

Senior Member

12-25-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGoat View Post
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the abilities/don't understand how they work, so I'ma disregard this.
Or rather, you don't understand what you've written.

You have two four-second disables on a 10 and 12 second timer respectively.

These disables are not broken on damage to the target.

So if you stacked 40% cd reduction (20% attainable from masteries/runes, 20% from ~1650 gold), you now have two 4 second disables on a 6 and 7.2 second timer respectively. Meaning that if you chained them, the target would NEVER regain control of their character until you ran out of mana or decided to waltz away from them.

So what happens, is let's say you attack a creep in the middle lane while they're Manipulated, they'll begin walking towards your tower (as per what you listed). For four seconds. So they're basically oneshot already. But better yet, once they get into tower range, you can Flash backwards (in front of them), and then lock them down until the tower executes them. Or you could alternate between the lockdown and the inverse controls in the middle of the field, just walking in a circle (and they'd walk in the opposite direction, but in the same circle), so they'd take two doses of images every eight seconds or so. Which wouldn't be such a big problem were it not for the fact that you can disable them indefinately by stacking maxmana.


Now, Bane is considered balanced in DotA because DotA has BKB, and BKB is mandatory for carries going up against Bane. Additionally his Nightmare can be removed by BKB, or by being hit (and you can be hit by your allies to pass the nightmare onto a "prefered" target). Additionally his ult only lasts for 3 seconds and has a minute cooldown which CAN'T be reduced (unless you build a refresher, but that's a whole different mechanic entirely). And keep in mind that Bane's other defensive options are negated by the same counter that his disables are (any kind of spell immunity; or being a burst disable-nuker yourself like Lina or Lion).

Your hero operates outside of spell immunity (because Cleanse/Merc doesn't remove or shorten control loss), and his defenses counter the main counter to Bane: disables and burst nukes. Additionally, if his images are controllable, then he could leave one at fountain to Reality Shift onto (yep, same get-out-of-jail-free card that Spectre has with an illusion rune).


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SlyGoat

Member

12-25-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppetSoul View Post
Now, Bane is considered balanced in DotA because DotA has BKB, and BKB is mandatory for carries going up against Bane. Additionally his Nightmare can be removed by BKB, or by being hit (and you can be hit by your allies to pass the nightmare onto a "prefered" target). Additionally his ult only lasts for 3 seconds and has a minute cooldown which CAN'T be reduced (unless you build a refresher, but that's a whole different mechanic entirely). And keep in mind that Bane's other defensive options are negated by the same counter that his disables are (any kind of spell immunity; or being a burst disable-nuker yourself like Lina or Lion).

Your hero operates outside of spell immunity (because Cleanse/Merc doesn't remove or shorten control loss), and his defenses counter the main counter to Bane: disables and burst nukes. Additionally, if his images are controllable, then he could leave one at fountain to Reality Shift onto (yep, same get-out-of-jail-free card that Spectre has with an illusion rune).
I'ma skip everything you said that has already been realized by those that actually took the time to read 1/3 of my post.

Any kind of disable completely shuts down both of his controls. I'll let you, you know, actually read the post to figure out why. Bane's ult lasts for 5 seconds, or did the last time I played DotA; maybe you still play and it's been nerfed since. DotA has no cooldown reduction, but it also has no CC reduction outside of BKB, which coincidentally did not block Bane's ultimate disable, only the damage (again, as of the last time I played).

Bane has counters. Hey, so does my hero.

Rammus
  • Fixed a bug where Puncturing Taunt could not be cleansed and was not reduced by effects like Mercury Treads

I can pretty much disregard the rest of your second paragraph as it deals with things that would be easily clarified by actually reading the post.


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treehugger

Member

12-25-2009

One thing I don't like about doppleshift is that it requires the images to die before the Revenant does.
One way of changing this is that instead of switching hp with the image, doppleshift gives the illusion that Revenant switch hp with the image to the enemy.
Example: Revenant has 100 hp at location A. Image has 200 hp at location B. Once switch, Reveant still has 100 hp. But th enemy will see that the Revenant at location B has 200 hp. The image that just got switched to location A has 100 hp though.
To compensate for this nerf, lowers the cd on doppleshift.

This change will open up a while new venue of confusion strategy where you can make the enemy think you are near death then you are full hp and vice versa.


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