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@Zileas: I'm calling you out (politely); Wall o' Text warning

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Nursè Redheart

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
S1AL:

***Burden of Knowledge***

I don't even really know where to begin with this one... in my opinion, Zileas is basically saying: "we think that our
players - who will probably put several hundred hours and at minimum some tens of dollars into this game - are either too
lazy, too stupid, or too stubborn to go learn what characters do. Additionally, we are also assuming that they are too
immature to ask their teammates or become curious rather than become ENRAGGGGGEEEEDDDDDD." It doesn't sound quite the same when it's phrased that way, now does it?


Have you seen the community?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-10-2010

Quote:
Ronald22:
No, you got it backwards.

YOU think that newbs are IDIOTS. Which is why you won't make new spells that do cool things but are easy to understand.

Pretty much every champion has a basic nuke. And by basic, I mean basic. Literally, you point, click -- damage.

WHY?

Razor. Plasma Field. Problem? Yes it did more damage right on the edge. Not that much. After 3 casts, you'd figure it out.

Why can't there be LoL nukes like that. Because you think newbs are idiots that can't notice anything for themselves.

Trust me when I say, that is not a hard skill to understand, and it doesn't hurt you much if you don't understand it.


Um... It's not that I think newbs are idiots, it's that newbs have a maximum amount of stress they are willing to take before quitting the game and playing something else. Learning stuff is stressful, and the more pressure you put on it and the quicker you demand it, the more stressful it is. We want to ease this stress through various methods (making it easier to understand, spreading out the learning, etc) so people can learn the game and do stick around for it.


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Stillhart

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Zileas:
It's true. Why did using the terms straw man and ad hominen become some popular? Did it get introduced into secondary education recently or something?

I don't know about everyone else, but I had to take a Critical Thinking class as part of my core in business school. We learned about all the logical fallacies, and I use what I learned in that class daily. Calling someone out with the name of the fallacy is kind of smarmy IMO tho.

Regarding casual vs hardcore, I agree that it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. Unfortunately tho, it often seems to fall out that way; many times making changes to appease casual gamers does make the game less fun for the hardcore gamers. It doesn't have to, and if you can pull it off, **** yeah! But I don't think it's surprising that people hold that opinion.

Honestly tho, I think it's more of a vicious cycle kind of mentality. Like "I paid my dues, why shouldn't the new players deal with the **** I dealt with?" Perceived negative more than an actual negative.


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Enraged Magikarp

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Zileas:
Depends on the champion. Pro Nidalees are really outrageous and seldom seen in the present meta unfortunately.


I don't know you Zileas, but I stopped judging you here. Yay Nidalee love! She rocks! And I love how most people are bad with her. Tickles my ego.


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S1AL

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
EasymodeX:
Zileas notes are guidelines. All abilities in the game require a degree of knowledge. The issue is one of magnitude -- Rupture was pretty **** obscure unless you actually played Bloodseeker and read the ability. You can get rolled with it a dozen times and maybe figure out what it's doing.

Obviously you could always ask someone, but their goal is to soften the learning curve, and we know the playerbase loves to communicate and help each other out.

I spent a while explaining why I felt that BS was poor example, but it basically boiled down to: Rupture was an extremely poor visual design, and very easy to understand if you got a debuff explaining (movement causes you to take damage, ok, got it).
Quote:

In the sense of this anti-pattern, I'm leaning to "it's a good anti-pattern but should not heavily restrict abilities that are introduced -- the anti-pattern should describe *how the abilities are executed*".

I made a post in the other thread -- sure, Rupture is pretty **** obscure. But, if the ability drops an AOE caltrops around your target, it becomes much more obvious how it functions.

Lina Inverse. 50% IAS buff. I thought it was great. You could go a DPS build with Bracers x Stygian. Good times.

Yeah, I had to go back and spend some time looking through characters again, but one impression I get is that Zileas prefers very focused characters, while Icefrog tended to design more flexible but more unfocused characters.
Quote:

At a basic level, I think I've played more games of MOBAs than Zileas has. Shrug.

Also, nice way to try and speak for everyone else.

Battletanks, Battleships, DotA, Tides of Blood, LoL, HoN, and a dozen RtS variants with MoBA precursors? Yeah, me too.

Quote:

How do you stop denying? Harass the enemy champion. What happens if you get gold loss on death? You gank the **** out of the enemy carry, so THEY lose gold on death.

Bottom line is that aggressive / passive gameplay is mostly a function of player behavior. Those mechanics are simply tools that can be used either way.

Just because those mechanics make YOU into a passive player, does not mean the fault lies at the feet of the mechanic.

Hell, LoL as a whole, due to the 5v5 / gold-on-assist / gold-inflation and no gold loss, is MUCH more passive than DotA, at least in the US metagame.

I would say that there are other reasons (like the minimal as Hell ganking space before a tower is down), but I agree for the most part.
Quote:

DotA had around 6 or so. (1) Anti-Mage. (2) Diffusal Blade. (3) Lion's Mana Drain. (4) Invoker's EMP. (5) KOTL's Mana Leak. (6) Obsidian Destroyer's ult against high INT targets.

Sidenote: Unless you're differentiating between Mana Drain and Mana Burn, or other Mana removal abilities.

I meant strictly mana drain in that instance, yes. Mana loss effects tend to come in 3 forms: burn, drain, leak. DotA had 2, 1, and 3 repectively (as you listed). I think there is actually a lot of design space to be had around a proper execution of Drain/Burn/Leak and a couple more that were never implemented as abilities (drain-to-heal, "manasteal," etc), but I also understand why a game oriented around making every ability an active (even ones that have no business having an active side) would create issues with such designs.


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Expertise

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Zileas:
There's no reason to make the game complicated in and of itself. Making the game deep is valid.


I don't understand what you mean by deep. Deep can mean many things. When do skills and concepts start to get complicated? I'm confused about the level of simplicity that you're talking about. Do you want skills that just deal damage and that's it? Does complicated mean skills like illusions (Shaco, Phantom Lancer from DoTa) aren't simple enough? I really think Shaco's clone should get the items back in its inventory...with our without the effects of the items. The clone is utterly useless and easy to distinguish from the real Shaco.

Still not understanding what you mean by "deep"...

And what's your view on GP's Parrrley? It's denial. But GP basically needs it to be a viable champion.


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Stillhart

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Zileas:
Um... It's not that I think newbs are idiots, it's that newbs have a maximum amount of stress they are willing to take before quitting the game and playing something else. Learning stuff is stressful, and the more pressure you put on it and the quicker you demand it, the more stressful it is. We want to ease this stress through various methods (making it easier to understand, spreading out the learning, etc) so people can learn the game and do stick around for it.

I think Eve Online is a perfect example of an amazing game with a learning curve that's prohibitively steep. It's more of a learning cliff. They have spent the last I don't know how many patches improving the "new player experience" and now they're even removing the Learning skills. They recognized their mistake and they're trying to change it but how many people have they lost over the years because they tried it and were completely confounded and frustrated?


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VvlJbKLuRTmQ2kRT

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Zileas:
Um... It's not that I think newbs are idiots, it's that newbs have a maximum amount of stress they are willing to take before quitting the game and playing something else. Learning stuff is stressful, and the more pressure you put on it and the quicker you demand it, the more stressful it is. We want to ease this stress through various methods (making it easier to understand, spreading out the learning, etc) so people can learn the game and do stick around for it.


Of course, and by doing it you loose a portion of player-base that enjoys more in-depth mechanics than simple - damage. And then you have your hands full of leavers, ragers and other less than adequate people. Is it worth it? If a person doesn't want to learn in an rts genre, may be he shouldn't play it at all?

By that, i mean if a player finds it stressful to learn (develop), then he should go back to farmville. Or may be it's your point? You want farmville moba?


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S1AL

Senior Member

12-10-2010

Quote:
Zileas:
Um... It's not that I think newbs are idiots, it's that newbs have a maximum amount of stress they are willing to take before quitting the game and playing something else. Learning stuff is stressful, and the more pressure you put on it and the quicker you demand it, the more stressful it is. We want to ease this stress through various methods (making it easier to understand, spreading out the learning, etc) so people can learn the game and do stick around for it.


Honestly, anyone who thinks that learning stuff about a game is stressful needs to get out into the real world... being behind on bills, having to work 80 hours a week, finals week for a difficult major, now those are stressful. This game is how I de-stress (and yes, that includes this entire thread. And reading about this game. And learning this game. I like ideas).


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-10-2010

Quote:
S1AL:
I spent a while explaining why I felt that BS was poor example, but it basically boiled down to: Rupture was an extremely poor visual design, and very easy to understand if you got a debuff explaining (movement causes you to take damage, ok, got it).

Indeed. Most of the problem is visual. That, and it doesnt really fit Bloodseeker's kit that well anyway. It's a nuke that is primarily effective if you've already killed the dude. Why not just make a nuke that does double damage at targets under 50% health?

Quote:

Yeah, I had to go back and spend some time looking through characters again, but one impression I get is that Zileas prefers very focused characters, while Icefrog tended to design more flexible but more unfocused characters.

Given 2/3 of the DOTA characters were designed by Guinsoo, and a lot of them after he left were community submissions, are you referring to Icefrog or to Guinsoo? Guinsoo characters in LoL include Shaco, Shen, Annie, Yeti, Alistar, Twitch, Fiddlesticks, Soraka, Twisted Fate. Note that a lot of these are "old" characters that need a lot of updating.