[Guide] Ashe - The Team Queen

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TLtitan

Member

12-29-2010

21 off and movespeed quints and double mana regen is better


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLtitan View Post
21 off and movespeed quints and double mana regen is better
Where's your survivability and your spammability?

Without the cooldown from runes OR masteries, how do you spam Arrow? Or even Volley for that matter?

Without HP quints or defensive masteries how do you keep from having to go back to base for health every minute?

Please explain your comment so I can consider it a bit more. I'm intrigued by it, but it just doesn't make much sense to me. Perhaps if you explain your logic I could consider it and alter the guide to accommodate your thoughts.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-29-2010

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Originally Posted by Gormakr View Post

1) Runes - I use move speed quints - I used to use crit dmg as that was all I had available - The move speed seems to help survivability early and late and to help in chasing. Thoughts on that vs. health?
I finally went back to take a look at this, and I will stand by my initial assessment of HP quints instead of move speed. Here's why:

Move speed quintessences only grant 1.5% additional move speed each. That's a total of 4.5% increased move speed if you get all 3. Comparing this to over 90 extra HP, it is simply not enough of a bonus. Since you already go with utility masteries, you're getting plenty of move speed from that. I would still recommend getting the extra health for the additional survivability over the better move speed.

You're already going to be getting at least one item that boosts move speed (either Ghostblade or Phantom Dancer) later in the game, so it's better to improve your defenses with extra health. Plus, if you go with percentage increase runes, you're running the risk of hitting the soft cap on move speed if you go with Boots of Swiftness. In which case, the effectiveness of either your items or runes starts to become smaller as the game goes on, making the HP runes even more appealing.

Hope that helps!


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SoFFacet

Senior Member

12-29-2010

I think by "double mana regen" he means mana regen/18 blues and yellows like I use. You definitely don't have mana problems with that setup. I don't use Health Quints either and the reason I don't have to go back to base to heal is that I just don't take damage.

This is what I see as the primary difference in our Ashe styles. Its quite apparent by your health quints, defensive masteries, Heal, and the description of your early game in your guide, that you are gearing up to try and single-handedly win a war in the middle lane.

I basically ignore the enemy champ most of the time, and focus on getting 100% last hits. If I do it right, the only interaction between myself and the enemy mid will be him getting repeatedly tagged by Volley from max range, eventually draining enough hp to force him to recall and miss a wave or two. I mostly fire ECA at side lanes or during a Jungler's gank on my lane. But the point is that in general I take very little damage during the laning phase.


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SoFFacet

Senior Member

12-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
you're running the risk of hitting the soft cap on move speed if you go with Boots of Swiftness.
Ashe has base speed of 300, add 90 for Boots 3 and 4.5% for the quints and you're at 407.55. Add in PD (another 15%) and you're at 466.05, still well under the soft cap at 490. I can't really think of any other movespeed items Ashe would buy, so I doubt anyone would ever hit the cap.

Quote:
the effectiveness of either your items or runes starts to become smaller as the game goes on, making the HP runes even more appealing.
Well lets be honest here, the HP quints suffer from the same problem, since by the late game the 100 extra HP will only keep you alive for a fraction of an extra second, should you ever need it. Actually theres a good chance that it doesn't help you at all since whatever killed you probably overkilled you by more than 100 HP.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
I think by "double mana regen" he means mana regen/18 blues and yellows like I use. You definitely don't have mana problems with that setup. I don't use Health Quints either and the reason I don't have to go back to base to heal is that I just don't take damage.
This seems like a pretty fun build. I assume that rushing Brutalizer & Ghostblade is what you do for CDR...

In which case, this build would be quite interesting.

Quote:
This is what I see as the primary difference in our Ashe styles. Its quite apparent by your health quints, defensive masteries, Heal, and the description of your early game in your guide, that you are gearing up to try and single-handedly win a war in the middle lane.
You're dang right I am! LOL!!!

I guess I'm more of an aggressive mid Ashe than a passive farmer. I like to be able to mess with my opponent early game (especially the mages) and keep them on their toes. Your build basically forces Ashe to stay at the back and ONLY last hit...which could easily let a strong pusher push the creeps into your tower, denying you last hits...

I've tried both methods, and really prefer mine more, but I'm gonna experiment with yours and some others as well over the weekend to double check the concepts when soloing mid.

I'll admit that if you're in a side lane, the build you and others have proposed makes much more sense.

Quote:
I basically ignore the enemy champ most of the time, and focus on getting 100% last hits. If I do it right, the only interaction between myself and the enemy mid will be him getting repeatedly tagged by Volley from max range, eventually draining enough hp to force him to recall and miss a wave or two. I mostly fire ECA at side lanes or during a Jungler's gank on my lane. But the point is that in general I take very little damage during the laning phase.
The problem with this is, you're not equipped to handle a trigger-happy champion. If you get up against an aggressive harasser, they'll just deny you by forcing you to only go for the extreme front line of minions.

At least that's the issues I've run into when soloing mid with that type of build...maybe I just need to try it some more (which I'm definitely going to do over the weekend, minus move speed quints).


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Ashe has base speed of 300, add 90 for Boots 3 and 4.5% for the quints and you're at 407.55. Add in PD (another 15%) and you're at 466.05, still well under the soft cap at 490. I can't really think of any other movespeed items Ashe would buy, so I doubt anyone would ever hit the cap.
Wow...

I guess that's what I get for trying to update guides based on memory.

My sincere apologies. Thank you for pointing this out!

Quote:
Well lets be honest here, the HP quints suffer from the same problem, since by the late game the 100 extra HP will only keep you alive for a fraction of an extra second, should you ever need it. Actually theres a good chance that it doesn't help you at all since whatever killed you probably overkilled you by more than 100 HP.
This is true. I guess what I should have said is the following:

Speed quints only grant an improved speed of 13.5 with Ashe's base move speed. If you go with Boots of Speed to start the game, she gets an improved move speed of 4.5 from the boots, so an overall improvement of 18 move speed for the grand total of 368.

That is almost the equivalent of Boots 2 (370) at level 1. I agree this is useful for starting off the game, as nobody will be able to chase you.

However, even that improvement doesn't help if your opponent pushes your creep wave into the tower (Sivir comes to mind). In which case your farming will be severely limited, and the ability to counter-harass and trade blows serves you better. Early game, the choice for extra move speed is intimidating, but I'm not so certain it's exceptionally useful late game as I rarely need any additional speed (even without PD).

Ultimately, though, we're getting too in-depth for a guide, and are now discussing playstyles...It's really up to each player's preference.


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SoFFacet

Senior Member

12-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
This seems like a pretty fun build. I assume that rushing Brutalizer & Ghostblade is what you do for CDR...

In which case, this build would be quite interesting.
Like I said before, my core items are DBlade(s) --> Greaves --> IE --> Zeal, so I disregard CDR entirely except for that one offensive mastery. The way I see it, a % decrease of a small cooldown is itself very small. I think its better maximally boost her AA, rather than chase fractions of seconds on Volley.

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I guess I'm more of an aggressive mid Ashe than a passive farmer. I like to be able to mess with my opponent early game (especially the mages) and keep them on their toes.
But you keep saying (correctly), Ashe is weak early and strong late. Why would you want to pick a fight when you are at your weakest point?

Quote:
Your build basically forces Ashe to stay at the back and ONLY last hit...which could easily let a strong pusher push the creeps into your tower, denying you last hits...

The problem with this is, you're not equipped to handle a trigger-happy champion. If you get up against an aggressive harasser, they'll just deny you by forcing you to only go for the extreme front line of minions.
Thats not my experience at all. Heres how a typical mid lane goes for me:

There are three possible things that the enemy could do: Farm, Push, or Harass.

By farm, I mean that he focuses on getting last hits without trying to pick a fight or pushing the lane. If he farms, then we both farm in peace until I hit level 7. At this point Volley recharges quickly enough that I can execute an effective harass, and from this point on I constantly try to tag him with Volley from max range. Unless he literally feeds me a kill, I never pick a fight, only harass. In this way I take no damage unless I **** up.

By pushes the lane I mean that either via spells or autoattack, clears each wave as fast as he can and tries to drive the waves to the tower. In this case, his intentions are clear immediately, and I can return fire with an appropriate amount of AAs and Volleys to hold the creep line about the 1/3 of the way from my tower to his. Even while doing this, most last hits can still be achieved. Eventually Volley's recharge is short enough to engage in the same kind of harass described above. Again, I never pick a straight fight. Only harass or ignore.

By harass, I mean that the enemy mid aggressively tries to damage, kill, or zone me. The basic reason why this never works is that he has to come to you. He will come forward to try and either attack you or fire a spell at you. The solution to this is quite simple: dodge whatever spell it is, and every time he tries it, tag him with Volley. Because he's coming forwards and you can back up immediately after firing Volley, often times he ends up slowed before even getting in range for his spell. If hes smart, he backs off. If hes stubborn and keeps coming forwards, all hes doing is picking a fight while slowed in the middle of your creep wave while you're standing behind yours and quite near your tower. I'll take it.

It should be noted that the Volley harass does not exactly carry the intention of killing, as it will be quite possible for the enemy to recall at several points while hes getting lower. Instead, merely causing said recall is the intention, so as to set the enemy mid behind in gold and xp. However, kills still do come to pass, mostly in the form of a jungle gank on an enemy champ attempting to harass me or push my lane. This is another reason I prefer to stay back and not pick fights - I am very rarely gankable.

TL;DR Volley harass while taking no damage = good. Standing there autoattacking eachother = bad. Standing there autoattacking eachother after hes put himself at a massive disadvantage = sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Speed quints only grant an improved speed of 13.5 with Ashe's base move speed. If you go with Boots of Speed to start the game, she gets an improved move speed of 4.5 from the boots, so an overall improvement of 18 move speed for the grand total of 368.

That is almost the equivalent of Boots 2 (370) at level 1. I agree this is useful for starting off the game, as nobody will be able to chase you.

However, even that improvement doesn't help if your opponent pushes your creep wave into the tower (Sivir comes to mind). In which case your farming will be severely limited, and the ability to counter-harass and trade blows serves you better. Early game, the choice for extra move speed is intimidating, but I'm not so certain it's exceptionally useful late game as I rarely need any additional speed (even without PD)..
I would never endorse Boots first, even if with MS Quints you can get the equivalent of Boots 2 at level 1. Its just unsafe. However, with a normal DBlade start, perhaps the correct way to look at MS Quints is that they give an equivalent Boots 3 when you have Boots 2. That sounds pretty appealing. I mean, 1/3 of the reason I buy Zeal every game is to have an equivalent (actually slightly better but w/e) Boots 3 when I actually have Greaves.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Like I said before, my core items are DBlade(s) --> Greaves --> IE --> Zeal, so I disregard CDR entirely except for that one offensive mastery. The way I see it, a % decrease of a small cooldown is itself very small. I think its better maximally boost her AA, rather than chase fractions of seconds on Volley.



But you keep saying (correctly), Ashe is weak early and strong late. Why would you want to pick a fight when you are at your weakest point?



Thats not my experience at all. Heres how a typical mid lane goes for me:

There are three possible things that the enemy could do: Farm, Push, or Harass.

By farm, I mean that he focuses on getting last hits without trying to pick a fight or pushing the lane. If he farms, then we both farm in peace until I hit level 7. At this point Volley recharges quickly enough that I can execute an effective harass, and from this point on I constantly try to tag him with Volley from max range. Unless he literally feeds me a kill, I never pick a fight, only harass. In this way I take no damage unless I **** up.

By pushes the lane I mean that either via spells or autoattack, clears each wave as fast as he can and tries to drive the waves to the tower. In this case, his intentions are clear immediately, and I can return fire with an appropriate amount of AAs and Volleys to hold the creep line about the 1/3 of the way from my tower to his. Even while doing this, most last hits can still be achieved. Eventually Volley's recharge is short enough to engage in the same kind of harass described above. Again, I never pick a straight fight. Only harass or ignore.

By harass, I mean that the enemy mid aggressively tries to damage, kill, or zone me. The basic reason why this never works is that he has to come to you. He will come forward to try and either attack you or fire a spell at you. The solution to this is quite simple: dodge whatever spell it is, and every time he tries it, tag him with Volley. Because he's coming forwards and you can back up immediately after firing Volley, often times he ends up slowed before even getting in range for his spell. If hes smart, he backs off. If hes stubborn and keeps coming forwards, all hes doing is picking a fight while slowed in the middle of your creep wave while you're standing behind yours and quite near your tower. I'll take it.

It should be noted that the Volley harass does not exactly carry the intention of killing, as it will be quite possible for the enemy to recall at several points while hes getting lower. Instead, merely causing said recall is the intention, so as to set the enemy mid behind in gold and xp. However, kills still do come to pass, mostly in the form of a jungle gank on an enemy champ attempting to harass me or push my lane. This is another reason I prefer to stay back and not pick fights - I am very rarely gankable.

TL;DR Volley harass while taking no damage = good. Standing there autoattacking eachother = bad. Standing there autoattacking eachother after hes put himself at a massive disadvantage = sure.
Why haven't you made a guide? Where was all this good info (including that found in my guide) when I was learning Ashe?!?!

I like your style...I'll definitely be trying it out soon, as best I can. Played a couple games last night with my HP Runes and side lane...died a lot. I think extra Doran's > IE > LW (if necessary) > Zeal is a phenomenal build. This is exactly what we both seem to recommend. The only difference now is which runes and masteries you choose, which are ultimately based on play style. Perhaps I'm more of a skirmisher and you're more of a passive-aggressive type...I like to jump people at opportune moments, but you're content to out-farm them so you can get to late game as a powerhouse.

My biggest concern with your build, though is an emphasis on Attack Speed early on with your items. I have had multiple people indicate that attack speed on Ashe is kind of a waste until late game AFTER you have more than just IE to dish out damage with. Thoughts on getting attack speed early as opposed to later?

Quote:
I would never endorse Boots first, even if with MS Quints you can get the equivalent of Boots 2 at level 1. Its just unsafe. However, with a normal DBlade start, perhaps the correct way to look at MS Quints is that they give an equivalent Boots 3 when you have Boots 2. That sounds pretty appealing. I mean, 1/3 of the reason I buy Zeal every game is to have an equivalent (actually slightly better but w/e) Boots 3 when I actually have Greaves.
So you look at Move Speed Quints as a late-game investment. In addition, I guess it lets you go for something like Berserker's Greaves early to help with pushing a tower down while still having the move speed from boots 3. Interesting concept. Now I have to go buy Move speed quints just to see if I like this...

Excellent ideas. I'll probably update my guide in the next week or so to indicate some nice alternatives to runes, masteries, and items. Ultimately, though, the concept of trying to pick a certain build as the "best" is impossible. You really have to offer multiple options and let each player pick the one that suits their play style the best.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-30-2010

I wanted to go back and respond to these two points seperately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Like I said before, my core items are DBlade(s) --> Greaves --> IE --> Zeal, so I disregard CDR entirely except for that one offensive mastery. The way I see it, a % decrease of a small cooldown is itself very small. I think its better maximally boost her AA, rather than chase fractions of seconds on Volley.
The cooldown isn't for Volley. It's for Enchanted Crystal Arrow. An Arrow every 45-60 seconds (I forget the actual length) is amazing! Combine this with the mana regen from Utility, and you're really making people hate you... I NEVER advocate trying to get cooldown reduction for Volley, it just so happens that it's kind of a side benefit.


Quote:
But you keep saying (correctly), Ashe is weak early and strong late. Why would you want to pick a fight when you are at your weakest point?
Well, Ashe IS weak early game if you don't build her the way I do. If you build her my way, she can just about trounce anyone in mid if she tries to, with very few exceptions. With my build, you're taking her weakness in early game and turning it into a strength without sacrificing her other strength in late game, or at least the trade-off is more than worth it since any sacrifice late game can easily be made up for with items from your superb staying power (more farming), harassment (possibly a couple kills at mid), and flat out dominance in team fights.

When you can go x / 0 / x, with double digits in either kills or assists, you've completely DOMINATED the other team. I find that once Ashe can get her mandatory items, she rarely dies...but she usually has issues early on. My build fixes the early on part without sacrificing the late game stuff.

I guess this is the fundamental difference between the two of us. I like to buff her weaknesses so she's more balanced. You like to enhance her strengths to even more god-like proportions while simply avoiding her weaknesses if at all possible. Just a playstyle difference, and nothing more. Your way is not necessarily better than mine if I prefer skirmishing. Just like my way is not better than yours if you prefer farming. To each his own!