[Guide] Ashe - The Team Queen

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SoFFacet

Senior Member

12-27-2010

Time for a little bit of devil's advocate

Note: Now feels like an appropriate time to mention that although I agree with many things in your guide, Eledhan, there are some things I do differently. Specifically my Ashe is 21/0/9, Ghost/Flash, ArPen Quints+Reds, ManaRegen/18 Blues+Yellows, DBlade(s) --> Greaves --> IE --> Zeal in all cases.

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Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Ashe isn't really that good of a ganker.
Well I don't know about that. Shes got a stun, good damage, and permaslow if she can get near enough. If she initiates successfully on a pushed back lane from the bush, its pretty much 2 guaranteed kills. Remember that you forgo Flash for Heal - Flash is often required to keep up with enemy Flashes to seal those kills.

Still though, the main problem is that good ganker or not, leaving the middle lane often carries too great a penalty in lost xp, last hits, and tower health. Ganking is pretty much the jungler's job atm.

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Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Basically, move speed quints are nice, but unfortunately, they don't keep you in lane longer. You still have to get within range to deal damage, in which case, anyone who could hit you without the speed could still hit you (albeit less). For a ranged carry, the speed runes will decrease your damage, but against a mage, that 1 spell is all they can usually get off anyway.
Move speed can definitely help win a lane. It helps dodge Sivir's boomerang, Morgana's binding, TF's cards, Anivia's stun, basically all of MF's spells, enemy Volleys if you're in normal mode... did I miss any other common mids? Besides just dodging it helps you reposition faster so that you can sneak more Volleys through the creeps at clever angles, to tag enemies who thought they were safe.

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Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
And since only one ability actually gets better for dealing damage, XP gain is a bit useless on her. It would be different if we were talking Miss Fortune, since she has 3 + ult abilities to use, and needs the XP to get them faster, but we're dealing with Ashe.

Therefore, you can skip on XP gain, mana pool, move speed, etc. from utility...what you wanna do is work on how to eliminate weaknesses so you can dominate middle. One weakness is survivability...where is it if you go utility? It's not there...So, I say go with your extra survivability in defense and make sure your opponent pays for every inch of ground with offense. Play it safe, but punish them when they over-commit.
I guess "XP gain = good" is just an assumption that I've never questioned about playing mid. Ashe farms so much that it makes sense to me to maximize the level advantage. What kind of survivability are you gaining from the defense tree? 6 resist?

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While there is definitely a place for Ashe in the side lanes, her power comes from dominance through her presence. If you can be extra aggressive early on, then I imagine that you can make up for the difference. However, Ashe is so good at denying opponents that it makes more sense to put her on the opponent's mid champ so they never really get a good game.
I agree here. Plus side lanes are just too dangerous imo. Ashe has no escapes so the relatively safe mid lane is definitely better.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Time for a little bit of devil's advocate
By all means, please do!!! I relish the opportunity to engage my brain to discuss concepts!

Quote:
Note: Now feels like an appropriate time to mention that although I agree with many things in your guide, Eledhan, there are some things I do differently. Specifically my Ashe is 21/0/9, Ghost/Flash, ArPen Quints+Reds, ManaRegen/18 Blues+Yellows, DBlade(s) --> Greaves --> IE --> Zeal in all cases.
Basically everything you just said is exactly how I used to build Ashe. There's nothing wrong here... I just prefer HP quints and Boots of Swiftness. It's not often that Ashe can actually survive standing there and auto-attacking.

In the original posting of the guide, I did not recommend Phantom Dancer because it wasn't as viable as it now is. In each of my last 5 games, I rush IE, then go straight to PD if I don't need LW. I like Swiftness because the extra attack speed is not as important early game since Ashe really can't go toe to toe with most ranged carries that will be playing mid, and therefore, can't really take advantage of Berserker's Greaves. I mean, it's really a matter of preference between Zerker's and Swiftness...so, no real beef here!
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Well I don't know about that. Shes got a stun, good damage, and permaslow if she can get near enough. If she initiates successfully on a pushed back lane from the bush, its pretty much 2 guaranteed kills. Remember that you forgo Flash for Heal - Flash is often required to keep up with enemy Flashes to seal those kills.

Still though, the main problem is that good ganker or not, leaving the middle lane often carries too great a penalty in lost xp, last hits, and tower health. Ganking is pretty much the jungler's job atm.
I agree that she CAN do a decent job...but if you miss with the arrow (maybe the target gets skittish and moves...etc.), your attempt was completely wasted, and now you've sacrificed all that xp and gold and tower health at mid. I think we both agree that this is the most important thing...like you said, leave ganking to the jungler.

I will say, though, that if a lane is in trouble, and you're the closest, ask someone to cover for ya, then shift to the hurting lane. This allows you to keep all towers up, and you have a much higher chance of getting a successful gank.
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Move speed can definitely help win a lane. It helps dodge Sivir's boomerang, Morgana's binding, TF's cards, Anivia's stun, basically all of MF's spells, enemy Volleys if you're in normal mode... did I miss any other common mids? Besides just dodging it helps you reposition faster so that you can sneak more Volleys through the creeps at clever angles, to tag enemies who thought they were safe.
I won't argue with that...however, I find that I have little issues dodging those abilities (or any other mid's abilities) without the extra speed. However, I can see that it would be useful, just don't know if it's as or more useful than the HP quints. I'll probably try this once I get some more IP.
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I guess "XP gain = good" is just an assumption that I've never questioned about playing mid. Ashe farms so much that it makes sense to me to maximize the level advantage. What kind of survivability are you gaining from the defense tree? 6 resist?
I think the thing you miss out on if you go with the XP is the HP regen based on mana pool. That's pretty darn good. I'd have to theorycraft it to see which is ultimately better, but I find that the HP regen early on is pretty sick.

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I agree here. Plus side lanes are just too dangerous imo. Ashe has no escapes so the relatively safe mid lane is definitely better.
Haha, yeah, I agree. It really is kind of silly to put Ashe anywhere besides mid.

Anyway, the rest of the information really just comes down to personal preference...if you prefer flash over heal, go with flash. If you like move speed over HP quints, then go with that! Regardless, most players should figure out basic concepts by reading guides, and then tweak those concepts to fit your personal preferences.

Thanks for the input SoFFacet! As always, I enjoy the input you've given to help improve this guide! Keep it up!


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Gormakr

Junior Member

12-28-2010

Great - thanks for the feedback.

One thing on the health regen mastery - I've never been a big fan of this for tanks or carries; however, it can be decent for Champions that end up with large mana pools like Anivia. The numbers for Ashe are very small.

Keep in mind that Ashe has 173 base mana and gains 27 mana per level. 3/3 Strength of Spirit gives 1% of max mana as health regen. So, at L1, that's 1.73 health per 5 seconds or 20.76 health per minute. So, after one minute, you've regenerated ~1/3 of an average autoattack from a Level 1 Champion. (I'm assuming that the conversion goes to health/5 rather than health/second - I believe this is correct but haven't verified in-game. If it's health/second, I agree that Strength of Spirit becomes a lot more compelling.)

At L6, it's 36.96 health per minute, and at level 18, that's 75.84 health per minute. I recognize that the XP benefit from utility tree is limited, but I think it's a stretch to say that Strength of Spirit is dramatically more effective than Awareness.

Also, to keep SoS in perspective:

- Ashe's base health regen is 0.9 at L1 and an additional 0.11 per level. So, it does represent a good gain on her base levels (almost tripling the base level).
- The health regen of a Doran's shield is +8/5, so Strength of Spirit represents ~22% of the health regen value of a Doran's Shield.
- Doran's blade now gives 3% lifesteal I believe - so, to equal the regen of SoS, Ashe can autoattack for 58 damage/5 (or 11.5 dps) with a Doran's Blade.

This means that either Doran's item will likely have a much larger effect on Ashe's health sustainability than SoS (although every little bit helps of course).

If you buy mana items (banshee's veil is one you mention), then the value of this talent would increase accordingly.

As you often point out, these things are on the margin and very much up to player choice and style, and I'm interested to give it a try in a few Normal Games with SoS to see how I like it, but for now, I lean towards Utility for Ashe. However, I'm willing to be convinced.

Oh, and I always use SoS on Anivia, Veigar and Annie the few times I use them as I end up with large mana pools and some decent health regen in comparison to their total health levels.

Thanks again for some great thoughts and a very useful guide.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormakr View Post
Great - thanks for the feedback.
Of course! I find that interacting with people is the fastest way to learn...

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One thing on the health regen mastery - I've never been a big fan of this for tanks or carries; however, it can be decent for Champions that end up with large mana pools like Anivia. The numbers for Ashe are very small.

Keep in mind that Ashe has 173 base mana and gains 27 mana per level. 3/3 Strength of Spirit gives 1% of max mana as health regen. So, at L1, that's 1.73 health per 5 seconds or 20.76 health per minute. So, after one minute, you've regenerated ~1/3 of an average autoattack from a Level 1 Champion. (I'm assuming that the conversion goes to health/5 rather than health/second - I believe this is correct but haven't verified in-game. If it's health/second, I agree that Strength of Spirit becomes a lot more compelling.)

At L6, it's 36.96 health per minute, and at level 18, that's 75.84 health per minute. I recognize that the XP benefit from utility tree is limited, but I think it's a stretch to say that Strength of Spirit is dramatically more effective than Awareness.
I checked on this WAY back in the middle of November...we've had a few patches since then, so I might have to double check, but the HP regen seemed to be in the 20's per 5 with Strength of Spirit being the only source of HP regen. I will check again when I get off work, but It's entirely possible that it has changed. It used to be that the tooltip on SoS mastery says a percentage that was actually one tenth of the in-game value. If it hasn't changed, then it's definitely the way to go. I'll verify this evening.

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Also, to keep SoS in perspective:

- Ashe's base health regen is 0.9 at L1 and an additional 0.11 per level. So, it does represent a good gain on her base levels (almost tripling the base level).
- The health regen of a Doran's shield is +8/5, so Strength of Spirit represents ~22% of the health regen value of a Doran's Shield.
- Doran's blade now gives 3% lifesteal I believe - so, to equal the regen of SoS, Ashe can autoattack for 58 damage/5 (or 11.5 dps) with a Doran's Blade.

This means that either Doran's item will likely have a much larger effect on Ashe's health sustainability than SoS (although every little bit helps of course).

If you buy mana items (banshee's veil is one you mention), then the value of this talent would increase accordingly.

As you often point out, these things are on the margin and very much up to player choice and style, and I'm interested to give it a try in a few Normal Games with SoS to see how I like it, but for now, I lean towards Utility for Ashe. However, I'm willing to be convinced.
Man, it's so nice to hear people discuss this stuff in an open-minded manner...

I agree, if SoS isn't useful due to it's lack of added survivability, then I would be the first to tell people to switch to utility. If that happens, expect to see this guide updated and focusing a bit more on utility Ashe.

If I do decide to update the guide to utility, would you recommend +XP or increased mana/HP regen? I feel like the logical choice would be the XP since the regen is so tiny on Ashe...dinging 6 before your opponent can grant you a surprise Arrow, which could win your battle for mid.

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Oh, and I always use SoS on Anivia, Veigar and Annie the few times I use them as I end up with large mana pools and some decent health regen in comparison to their total health levels.
Yeah, these champs almost NEED SoS on them...it's kind of silly not to.

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Thanks again for some great thoughts and a very useful guide.
Why thanks! I intend for this to be the go-to place for newer players to get whatever info they need on how to play Ashe...I need to work on the side laning section, but I just don't seem to have the time to really devote to it (I could be playing, for cryin out loud!). Besides, whenever I do play Ashe, it's usually because we need a good mid.

I'm currently in training to learn / build Akali and Rammus so I can have a decent AP and Tank champ. That will pretty much round out my roster for the time-being. I'll eventually get to updating the appendices, but for now, I'm just going to continue responding to posts from others.

Thanks again for the advice and discussion!


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Gormakr

Junior Member

12-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
If I do decide to update the guide to utility, would you recommend +XP or increased mana/HP regen? I feel like the logical choice would be the XP since the regen is so tiny on Ashe...dinging 6 before your opponent can grant you a surprise Arrow, which could win your battle for mid.
Yeah - I hear ya - hard to work on a guide of you could be playing! I'm always impressed with people that have the dedication to write a full guide.

When you look at the Utility tree, you'll see that health/mana regen is T1 and +XP is T2, so they don't compete. Regen competes with time spent dead. I used to always choose regen here as I don't intend to die. Then I noticed Phreak point out in one of his champion spotlites that champs with low regen don're really benefit from that talent (6% of almost nothing is still almost nothing). As a result, I now take Imp Ghost 1/1 and 3/3 of the time spend dead talent in the first tier. I hate it, but given Ashe's low natural regen levels and lack of regen items, I just go with the -10% time dead. On tier 2, I take 4/4 Awareness for the +XP. The other T2 option increases the total size of your mana pool rather than +XP - obviously not a viable option for Ashe.

I run with 11/0/19, so I also get mana regen, cd reduction, move speed and improved flash, but I know you focus much more on the offensive tree, so you probably don't need to worry about that. I'm going to try something closer to your suggested build for a bit on the offensive tree to see how that works for me.

One question I have, do you know if Havoc (the top of the Offensive Tree) increases base dmg by 5% or does it compound +dmg from items? I suspect the latter but would like to confirm - that obviously makes a ton of difference.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormakr View Post
Great - thanks for the feedback.

One thing on the health regen mastery - I've never been a big fan of this for tanks or carries; however, it can be decent for Champions that end up with large mana pools like Anivia. The numbers for Ashe are very small.

Keep in mind that Ashe has 173 base mana and gains 27 mana per level. 3/3 Strength of Spirit gives 1% of max mana as health regen. So, at L1, that's 1.73 health per 5 seconds or 20.76 health per minute. So, after one minute, you've regenerated ~1/3 of an average autoattack from a Level 1 Champion. (I'm assuming that the conversion goes to health/5 rather than health/second - I believe this is correct but haven't verified in-game. If it's health/second, I agree that Strength of Spirit becomes a lot more compelling.)

At L6, it's 36.96 health per minute, and at level 18, that's 75.84 health per minute. I recognize that the XP benefit from utility tree is limited, but I think it's a stretch to say that Strength of Spirit is dramatically more effective than Awareness.
Actually, I re-read your post, and double checked the original location of the explanation for SoS... The following can be found in this thread

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Runes & Masteries

Prioritize Defense over Utility, with the exception that the Ghost and Smite masteries are always worth the point if you're taking the spells. Always get Strength of Spirit--it gives 3% of your max mana as hp/5, not 0.3%, and the only reason nobody's told Riot about the typo is because they're terrified it will be 'fixed'.
In which case, the percentage for your calculation should actually be 3% of your total mana, not the 1% you used...

So, at level 1, Ashe' HP regen from SoS should be 3% of 200 total mana (173 + 27 per level = 200). This grants you 6 HP regen at level one. The HP / min regenerated would be 54. That's no small order when it comes to early game...

Once you get to level 6 (less than half-way through the laning phase if you're at mid), the benefit becomes even more awesome. Now you're calculating on 173 + 162 mana, which gives you 10.05 HP/5. This translates into 120 HP regen every minute...it would only take another 40 seconds to have the same effect as a HP potion. Basically, this allows you to fall back, focus on last-hitting, and keep your HP up as high as possible.

Does this out-weigh the benefits of the Utility tree? That's probably debatable...however, I prefer the HP / 5, so that's what I go with.

I'll double check all of this when I get home, but I'm pretty certain this is how it works.


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Gormakr

Junior Member

12-28-2010

Wow! 10x more than I thought it was does make a huge difference - I'll have to explore that when I can access the game too.

Thanks for pointing that out - I hadn't run across that quote before.

Oh, one other thing - have you considered adding Hexdrinker as a situational item? I like to grab it as an early buy against the few AP-heavy/bursty teams I encounter.

Its damage shield has saved me quite a few times now.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormakr View Post
Yeah - I hear ya - hard to work on a guide of you could be playing! I'm always impressed with people that have the dedication to write a full guide.
Well, I enjoy writing things out for my own sanity and thought processes, and since I do that, I like to write them for others to follow/critique. I've learned much more from attempting to write guides than I have from following others' guides.

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When you look at the Utility tree, you'll see that health/mana regen is T1 and +XP is T2, so they don't compete. Regen competes with time spent dead. I used to always choose regen here as I don't intend to die. Then I noticed Phreak point out in one of his champion spotlites that champs with low regen don're really benefit from that talent (6% of almost nothing is still almost nothing). As a result, I now take Imp Ghost 1/1 and 3/3 of the time spend dead talent in the first tier. I hate it, but given Ashe's low natural regen levels and lack of regen items, I just go with the -10% time dead. On tier 2, I take 4/4 Awareness for the +XP. The other T2 option increases the total size of your mana pool rather than +XP - obviously not a viable option for Ashe.
My sincere apologies for making you write this whole paragraph...

I knew the two don't compete...simply had the mana regen and max mana masteries mixed up in my head...sorry about that. Everything you said in the above paragraph is spot on.

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I run with 11/0/19, so I also get mana regen, cd reduction, move speed and improved flash, but I know you focus much more on the offensive tree, so you probably don't need to worry about that. I'm going to try something closer to your suggested build for a bit on the offensive tree to see how that works for me.

One question I have, do you know if Havoc (the top of the Offensive Tree) increases base dmg by 5% or does it compound +dmg from items? I suspect the latter but would like to confirm - that obviously makes a ton of difference.
I've had people tell me that the bonus damage is only calculated on the base damage, but that's probably not true. It simply wouldn't make sense to have a mastery that only increases Ashe's damage by 4.88 at level 18...

With an attack damage rating of about 200 (IE & Ghostblade @ level 18), you're only really adding 10 damage...that's not much, but I don't necessarily go that far into offense for that mastery. The thing that's nice about Offense with Ashe is the armor pen, increased damage, and critical damage bonuses.

Obviously, you have to at least go deep enough into offense to get the cooldown and magic pen for her Arrow, even if you go with utility Ashe.

I think I'll give your utility concept a try tonight and see how it works. I might even update the guide to show multiple options if I like it. If I go with Utility, I'll definitely be going with Flash/Ghost so I can maximize the use of them.

As you have already noticed, I'm a big proponent of "do what works for you". I only really included recommendations for stuff to help out those who like to have it spelled out for them. Because I know when I'm learning a champ, I need someone to just tell me what to do to be basically effective. I'll figure out the details as I go, but if I can't find a good guide to get me going, then I never really branch out into new experiences.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormakr View Post
Wow! 10x more than I thought it was does make a huge difference - I'll have to explore that when I can access the game too.

Thanks for pointing that out - I hadn't run across that quote before.

Oh, one other thing - have you considered adding Hexdrinker as a situational item? I like to grab it as an early buy against the few AP-heavy/bursty teams I encounter.

Its damage shield has saved me quite a few times now.
I've considered it, and tried it as well. I suppose if you're gonna rush Brutalizer it is a handy second chocie if you're up against a caster. This would let you start with Long Sword and adjust as needed.

I don't see any issues with the item, but just find that an item like that is more suited for the side lanes. Personally, I haven't had enough issues with casters mid because they can't spam spells early, but I get to harass the mess out of them with attacks. This keeps me from having to waste that gold on an item that quickly becomes useless.

Regardless of its usefulness early on, I would imagine that it would be pitiful late-game, in which case that gold was wasted. In order to justify building that item, it would have to be directly responsible for saving you and allowing you to either kill or farm up more gold than it cost (after selling). I find that hard to believe, especially when you include the opportunity cost of something like a BF Sword moving you that much closer to your IE while also netting you more last hits and kills / assists.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

12-28-2010

I figured I would toss this on here for us to look at and discuss.

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Offensive Build Bonuses:
+6 Armor Penetration
+3 Attack Damage
+2% Attack Speed
+10% Critical Attack Damage
+5% Physical and Magical Damage
+6 Magic Resistance
+6 HP / 5 at Level 1; +10 HP / 5 at Level 6
+2 Armor
Improved Heal
Improved Ghost


Utility Build Bonuses:
-10% Time Dead
+5% Experienced Gained
+1 Mana Regen per Second (+5 Mp5)
+10 Gold per 10 Seconds
+3% Move Speed
+6% Cooldown Reduction
+15% Monster Buff Duration
15% Less Cooldown on Summoner Spells
Improved Flash
Improved Ghost
TL;DR

Basically, I like the first because I want to mitigate Ashe's lack of damage and squishiness early game. Late game, she rocks the house, but needs help early on.




Ultimately, the reason I go with the 1st build is that it is highly focused on the early game. Honestly, I find that Ashe doesn't need any help late game if she has a good early game. Cooldown can come from items she wants to buy anyway. Ghostblade + Brutalizer + Masteries + Runes at level 18 puts her over 30% CDR. Mana regen can be picked up by either playing smart or by grabbing Golem. I regularly play games with zero deaths...which makes that mastery worthless. Gold isn't an issue with the extra firepower against creeps. The only thing that is really appealing here is the unbelievably short c/d on Summoner Spells. But that only becomes necessary later in the game...which I find I rarely need.

The whole point of the build I have posted is to mitigate Ashe's weaknesses early on because she can truly dominate no matter how you build her runes and masteries (stupid setups aside) because her item selection and utility makes her so formidable.

That's the long-winded version...