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Garen Balance Changes Feedback

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Omnipherious

Senior Member

09-07-2013

I am basing this feedback on the iteration of balance changes for Garen on the PBE as of 5th September 2013.

Judgment ( E ) - cooldown increased to 15/14/13/12/11 from 13/12/11/10/9
Judgment ( E ) - damage changed to 20/40/60/80/100 from 20/45/70/95/120.
Judgment ( E ) tooltip now also says "has .1/.15/.2/.25/.3 crit strike chance"

For context, I am a long time Garen player and I consider him to be my favourite champion. I've already given feedback regarding the VU in the stickied post and have since taken the time to feel out the balance changes instead.

Disclaimer
I apologize in advance if I seem angry during this post. I am quite upset with the changes but I assure you that I have thought about them thoroughly and tested them on the PBE.

In my initial feedback post in the VU thread, I said the following:

Quote:

Balance changes
  • Increased the cooldown on E by 2 seconds at all ranks (15/14/13/12/11 from 13/12/11/10/9).
    I dislike this change, details in point 3.
  • Added passive critical strike to E (.1/.15/.2/.25/.3 crit strike chance). This means 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30% passive crit chance on the ability and it seems to stack additively with regular crit chance from runes and items.
    I like this change, details in point 4.
  • I feel that an increased cooldown at all ranks is not justified. It is not worth the added crit chance to E. The nerfed base damage on E by 0 / 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 is trivial and is barely noticeable. The cooldown on the other hand is now what it originally was at release and it is real long. I notice the difference even with CDR.
    Do not like. Do not want. I would rather a lower passive crit chance (10 / 15%) and not lose cooldown or just 1 second of cooldown.
  • ...

Having actually tested these changes and seen how they impact Garen's gameplay patterns, I now completely dislike and disagree with these balance changes.

Increased Cooldown
Out of all the changes, this is the one I understand the least and hate the most.

You have reverted this cooldown to what it was at release. ... I am sorry but this is so archaic I feel ashamed. It is completely unjustified. I'd would go so far as to say that I think it is ridiculous and incredibly short-sighted.

Why nerf the base damage and increase the cooldown? Is it too strong? It doesn't feel strong at all. It was weak before and it is overall weaker now. But wait! It can be situationally stronger!

No.

If this is one of those 'high moments' of playing a champ that you envisioned players having, I'm telling you right now it doesn't happen because it is more unreliable that a hamster powered car.

Scale into the late-game? Good joke.

Garen is only constrained by cooldowns and you, Riot, have said before that cooldown only champions need to be gated early but can be generously rewarded later. I see a lot of gates and not a lot of rewards. Judgment is slowly becoming more and more punishing to use. Garen is already so incredibly vulnerable to counterplay given his play patterns and dated kit. An additional 2 seconds is an eternity late game. That's 3 auto-attacks from a fed AD carry with 250 AD and a Last Whisper at just 1.5 AS. That is huge.

So I'm expected to deal less guaranteed damage per second, hope to stay in range and get an RNG proc to actually be a threat?

I realize that Judgment cooldown now starts as soon as you activate the ability instead of when it ends so you end up getting 1 second net cooldown reduction compared to live. But what if I want to end the ability prematurely to Q and finish them off? Oh wait, I can't do that anymore... :|

As soon as I use E I'm committed to it unless I forcefully end it by casting R because that is the only way to remove the Judgment buff now. That also means if I spin on minions I can't end it early if I wanted to. 'Why would you ever want to end spinning minions early?' To properly trade in lane??? Nope, can't do it. You've also committed to pushing the lane.

But We've Added Free Critical Strike
Initially, I thought this was a brilliant change. 'It could always deal bonus damage on crit and now it has a passive crit chance?! Awesome!' - That's what I thought.

I saw that then the base damage nerfs and thought to myself surely the crits will make up for it and probably cause it to deal more damage overall.

In theory? Great.
In practice? Atrocious.

Given the way Critical Chance works in this game now and the mechanics of the ability, Garen is now weaker overall as long as you don't get some additional crit. If he wasn't already pigeon-holed into maxing E first before he would certainly be now to have some semblance of damage. This added component does not belong on E. It is not worth the loss of guaranteed damage for potential damage.

You want to give Garen passive crit chance? Put it on Q or make it a passive on E that just improves whatever crit you actually buy. So if you build tank too bad no damage boost. You invest in crit, bam you get bonus crit chance or a crit multiplier or just a flat damage multiplier based off crit chance.

If you did the math to compare old E and the new E, I'm sure the new E will give you better returns assuming you get all 6 ticks off since there is now passive crit.

But what if I don't crit? What if even at 30% crit instead of getting 2 out of 6 ticks as crits I get just one. And out of those 6 only 2 ticks of damage actually hit a champion? I'm doing less damage for sure... but I might accidentally do more :| No thank you.

A Medium Length Paragraphed Rant
Out of all the manaless champions, Garen is already close to the least impactful with non-ultimate abilities and has been for a long time.

Riot please decide what you want for Garen. The last time you touched Garen you said 'We needed to hit durability or damage and we chose to hit durability.' You hit his durability then and you are hitting his damage now. So please for the love of all that is Demacian decide what you want him to be.

The reason I play Garen is because I like the way his abilities look, his VO, his archetype. I've stuck by him despite the nerfs, despite him being outclassed and outdated because I believe in the awesomeness of this character. This VU has already killed some parts of what I love about old Garen so this set of balance changes for him is really pushing me to the limit.

Decide what you want. Give him a niche. He is losing it. He isn't the early game powerhouse he once was unless you're facing utterly incompetent opponents. Out of every champion he probably has the most self-counterplay. You keep talking about moving his power to late-game. I don't give a damn about late-game power. If you honestly think moving his strength to late-game is going to make him a more viable pick / increase his popularity / etc then you are all confused and mistaken. If you want late-game power you wouldn't choose Garen. Fk I wouldn't choose him.

I love Garen and even I am not deluded enough to think that he would be nearly as useful as the likes of Renekton or Riven late-game. Late game isn't about 'power' for Garen. If I'm playing for late-game I just wouldn't play Garen. Simple as that. It was never about late-game with Garen. Please realize the space he occupies. Make him the best in that space.

If you do not like where he stands now then please - no more band aid fixes, no more touch ups, buffs, nerfs. Leave him be until you have a solid direction that you want to rework him into. You are killing what has anchored me to this game and it makes me very upset.

I do not like these changes. Please reconsider.


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Critmaster Garen

Senior Member

09-07-2013

there are 2 points you missed.

- the increased cooldown is compensation for his e cooldown now immediately starting upon cast, instead when he finished the spin.

this is similar to lux last e change. if youre spinning for the full 3 seconds, the cooldown is effectively 1 second shorter than before.


- you are not able to cancel the spin anymore. this change is horrible tbh, and i hope, this is just a bug.

the q animation feels a lot slower, which is horrible too. if used as an auto attack reset for extra burst, it doesnt seem to nearly instantly apply the damage, like before.


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Omnipherious

Senior Member

09-07-2013

I did mention the increased cooldown actually equates to a 1 second net cooldown reduction overall since it goes on CD upon activation instead of at the end. Probably could've phrased it better and just got lost in feeling upset while posting.

I dislike the inability to cancel spin as well and hopefully they'll add it back.

I'm unsure about the Q animation being slower. I think it's more the case of us being used to more movement in the same amount of frames. The old one he had to flip and slash in a certain number of frames and I'm almost certain that the number of frames is still the same, just that he has less movement overall in the animation since it's just a small jump and slash. This is probably why it appears to be more sluggish.


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ShinRaigeki

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Someone posted a vid of Garen's new E.

It hit 7 minions. And even with high crit (30% + 10% off Equalizer) it only crit on one minion, and only... 3 times out of all those hits?

Generally it's coded wrong, very wrong, at the moment.


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Omnipherious

Senior Member

09-07-2013

I've just seen MarineRevenge's thread, the video and the red posts explaining what has happened. I think it'll be best to let things settle a bit. I'll take a step back and wait patiently for more comprehensive changes that shape Garen into what they want him to be.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

09-07-2013

The ability on PBE is granting 1-3% due to a bug.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
The ability on PBE is granting 1-3% due to a bug.


So can we assume that the ability was coded incredibly wrong upon making some sort of change to it?

Part of me hopes that you made it a lot more like Wukong's ult and forgot to add something into his tooltip or whatever.


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Killrazor

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
CynicalGiant:
So can we assume that the ability was coded incredibly wrong upon making some sort of change to it?

Part of me hopes that you made it a lot more like Wukong's ult and forgot to add something into his tooltip or whatever.


he means it is only giving 1-3% instead of the intended 10-30%. they just put the decimal in the wrong place. Simple fix.


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Purgatory Ace

Senior Member

09-07-2013

He is challenger.


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Berserk Knight

Junior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
The ability on PBE is granting 1-3% due to a bug.


Huh, that explains the non-crits I've been getting while spinning with the 71% crit.
(1% from runes, 70% from items)


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