Diamond 1 Garen @ Riot/Balance Team - Why NERF Garen?!?

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Axzarious

Senior Member

09-07-2013

@CertainlyT, Morello, Ironstylus/Parrotman and whoever else!

I have one very important question!

In the screenshots, Garen's ult seems to be a sword of light instead of a ZOMG WTF GIANT GLOWING METAL BLADE FROM THE SKY!

Why the change? The old version is 600% more awesome, and a blade of light seems to lack the raw visual impact - It seems so much more ephemeral than his last one... at least from the screenshot. You kinda bumped my expectations up with that cinematic trailer you guys released.

Random Idea - What if killing somebody with the ult doesn't have the champion go through the death animation, but instead made the champion pinned to the ground in some sort of manner?


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MarineRevenge

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I don't want to dwell on specifics because, again, these are first draft changes that have not even been playtested once outside of the lane. The reasoning for the change though was to make casting E a major commitment. Again, not every change will make Garen stronger. Every change should open space for us to make Garen stronger in the right hands.
Thank you for the feedback! However, please be aware how monumentally negative this change to Garen is. Unless you remove junglers from the game, auto-shoving lane endlessly and without control is a serious liability. Also, if the idea to cast E is a major commitment, then it should at least have extreme power behind it, right now with the numbers that slipped onto the PBE, accidentally or otherwise - you barely break even and many times not with very few instances of gaining an edge over the current trade power that Garen brings. Please do not add any randomness to his kit, it only creates bad and unreliable gameplay which is target for nerfs anytime its "good".

Secondly, I don't think Garen has no place in the lategame, but it's definitely he worst phase. He's redonkulously tanky and his Silence can be game-changing on the right target late game, and that's good enough for me and in my eyes - fair considering his current early/mid game strength.

I don't want a do-it-all champion that Riot will surely nerf subequently because he has too much going for him, we've seen it with plenty of other champions like Lee Sin.


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Shaidster

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hi MarineRevenge,
Thanks for your comments. Your thoughts on where crit should be on the kit are especially interesting. I’ll keep them in mind going forward.
Three general points:
First, these changes to Garen are very nascent. To be honest, they went to the PBE because I accidentally placed them in the wrong folder. They are currently closer to the “Stuff a designer prototypes on his machine” level of completion than “Stuff we ship to Live.” Feedback is always welcome, but hyperbolic statements like “they’re ruining him” are not necessary and needlessly breed panic over changes that, when the dust settles, are almost certain to leave him stronger overall.
Second, since this was an accidental promotion, it also did not include all of the changes to Garen – in the version we are about to begin playtesting, his passive is dramatically improved during the later phases of the game (healing values up/cooldown down) and his base stats and stats per level are slightly different.
Third, you have misapprehended the direct effect of some of these changes. For example, Garen’s Judgment (Spin to Win) is not on a longer cooldown. Rather, the cooldown begins when you press the button rather than when you end your spin. This means that Garen scales better with cooldown reduction. For example, at 34% CDR (say, Black Cleaver + Spirit Visage + masteries) Garen would have 25% less downtime on Judgment compared to Live. At 0% CDR, the spell is unchanged from Live in max uptme.

What are these changes really about? Let’s consider the Garen on Live: As you’ve identified, he’s a lane bully who lacks a purpose in the lategame. You seem to believe this is all Garen can ever be. I disagree. Every champion should have a purpose, a clear and potent contribution they can offer their team, in the late game when the game’s focus is on team fights and objectives. The goal of these changes is to trade a small amount of lane strength for a fundamental re-think of Garen’s late game.
My vision for Garen is that he is a relatively low mobility fighter (unchanged) with low combat ranges (unchanged) who a) is more or less immune to poke damage, b) inflicts immense damage to anyone within his reach, and c) if forced out of a fight but not killed, will rapidly regenerate health to return to the fray for cleanup duty. Think of him as an inverted Mundo/Singed – lower in-combat sustain but dramatically higher out of combat sustain. Pre-fight, Garen should walk in front of Nidalee spears and /laugh. Within fights, Garen should cleave a path through the mid-line, force the enemy ADC so far out of the fight that they cannot participate, turn and shut down the enemy mage or tank, execute the other while at 5% life himself, then solo dragon while his team takes an inhibitor.
As a final note, this isn’t just about Garen. We’re looking closely at our fighters as a class for season 4, individually and as a class with the goal of making the top lane experience more enjoyable – (while being in it and after emerging from it).
Well if you're going to be controlling the buffs/nerds to fighters in season 4, I cannot imagine how much more broken this game would be in the next season. Your champions have been nothing short of broken.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

09-07-2013

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Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Patience my friend. As the Mordekaiser player knows, you must first farm for 30 minutes before reaping your reward. -- CertainlyT
Assuming you can survive that long with your zero sustain, no utility, zero cc and influx of recent champions that have all of the above and more. This isn't season 1!

PS - Farming for 30 minutes before you are allowed to "play" isn't good design.


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BeefyLoveLord

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaidster View Post
Well if you're going to be controlling the buffs/nerds to fighters in season 4, I cannot imagine how much more broken this game would be in the next season. Your champions have been nothing short of broken.
Thresh isn't the shining star of out of control powercreep.

I don't know where you get your information.


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axzarious View Post
@CertainlyT, Morello, Ironstylus/Parrotman and whoever else!

I have one very important question!

In the screenshots, Garen's ult seems to be a sword of light instead of a ZOMG WTF GIANT GLOWING METAL BLADE FROM THE SKY!

Why the change? The old version is 600% more awesome, and a blade of light seems to lack the raw visual impact - It seems so much more ephemeral than his last one... at least from the screenshot. You kinda bumped my expectations up with that cinematic trailer you guys released.

Random Idea - What if killing somebody with the ult doesn't have the champion go through the death animation, but instead made the champion pinned to the ground in some sort of manner?
it doesnt even look like a sword anymore in game.

garen secretly joined the iron solari, and now casts solar flares from the sky. i liked the more finite and merciless feeling, the ult had before.

it honestly felt like you where just smiting a champion. a short "hard" (couldnt find a btter word) animation. now, it doesnt feel quite as good.


not so flashy, like the lighning, but fast and big enough, that it felt as if you where putting your foot down.


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Gorkins

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Thanks for the response CertainlyT, Garen's my absolute favorite champion, I'm really intrigued to hear more about your changes to Perseverance. I readily accept that I have low mobility and range, but as you said I should be able to do monster damage to people when I do make it to them, so I'm very glad your vision for the champion aligns with the playstyle I've grown so fond of.

Garen critting is one of the unique thing's I like about the champion, both his Decisive Strike and his Judgement, I like that your judgment changes are putting more emphasis on the crit aspect, I personally like to rush Infinity Edge on Garen, I find early and mid-game your damage can be so massive that it makes up for your lack of defense, anyways I like the idea of innate crit on Garen whether it comes from his E or his Q, it's just a really fun aspect to the character.


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Savage Winter

Senior Member

09-07-2013

I find the stuff posted by the rioter in here to be a load of ****.... Garen cannot do all that BS you said he can.


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage Winter View Post
I find the stuff posted by the rioter in here to be a load of ****.... Garen cannot do all that BS you said he can.
its what he imagines him like, and what he wants him to be able to do.


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Croanin

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineRevenge View Post
Thank you for the feedback! However, please be aware how monumentally negative this change to Garen is. Unless you remove junglers from the game, auto-shoving lane endlessly and without control is a serious liability. Also, if the idea to cast E is a major commitment, then it should at least have extreme power behind it, right now with the numbers that slipped onto the PBE, accidentally or otherwise - you barely break even and many times not with very few instances of gaining an edge over the current trade power that Garen brings. Please do not add any randomness to his kit, it only creates bad and unreliable gameplay which is target for nerfs anytime its "good".

Secondly, I don't think Garen has no place in the lategame, but it's definitely he worst phase. He's redonkulously tanky and his Silence can be game-changing on the right target late game, and that's good enough for me and in my eyes - fair considering his current early/mid game strength.

I don't want a do-it-all champion that Riot will surely nerf subequently because he has too much going for him, we've seen it with plenty of other champions like Lee Sin.
Aye. I chuckle when people state that Garen is useless late game. I can literally solo a Vayne as long as I have Ignite up due to his ultimate, love to see Renekton do that. Can completely stop a casters counter initiation and make Assassins worthless. The fact remains he still lacks utlity, he's not some teamfighting monster like Wukong or Jax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axzarious View Post
@CertainlyT, Morello, Ironstylus/Parrotman and whoever else!

I have one very important question!

In the screenshots, Garen's ult seems to be a sword of light instead of a ZOMG WTF GIANT GLOWING METAL BLADE FROM THE SKY!

Why the change? The old version is 600% more awesome, and a blade of light seems to lack the raw visual impact - It seems so much more ephemeral than his last one... at least from the screenshot. You kinda bumped my expectations up with that cinematic trailer you guys released.

Random Idea - What if killing somebody with the ult doesn't have the champion go through the death animation, but instead made the champion pinned to the ground in some sort of manner?
Also this, while it never made sense that Garen could just summon down a giant sword from the heavens it's almost as staple to him as his spin. It was even used in the cinematic, the guy just plops down a giant sword of ownership on you. He's pretty much sticking a flag on you that says "pwned"