Diamond 1 Garen @ Riot/Balance Team - Why NERF Garen?!?

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Cameran

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Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Every champion should have a purpose, a clear and potent contribution they can offer their team, in the late game when the game’s focus is on team fights and objectives.
Shyvana. Skarner. Mundo. Brand. Fiora. Swain. Warwick. Udyr. Olaf. Leblanc.

Maybe you should fix some of the numerous others that have similar issues (ie. get kited/be worthless late game). Your move?

EDIT for clarity (see below):
Many of the champs aren't "bad", but they have exactly the problem CertainlyT highlights with Garen - an early/mid game niche with very little impact in the late game. LB is the best example of this - you'll know at the 20 minute mark what the outcome of a LB game is whether the game is over or not - either she destroyed the mid and snowballed or she'll be worthless for the remainder of the game.


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Polish Mug

Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameran View Post
Shyvana. Skarner. Mundo. Brand. Fiora. Swain. Warwick. Udyr. Olaf. Leblanc.

Maybe you should fix some of the numerous others that have similar issues (ie. get kited/be worthless late game). Your move?
Udyr is actually in a good spot ATM.


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FreshFuhrer

Senior Member

09-07-2013

CertainlyT, you're the only good designer.
Make another hero like Thresh.


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H0p0nP0p

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Please keep garen from getting hit by nexus tower wen he's rereleased =D

Btw, his q animation to dmg is very very slow now. Or is it just me?


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Aran888888

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Seriously? At least give him his sword back for his ult.


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hi MarineRevenge,
Thanks for your comments. Your thoughts on where crit should be on the kit are especially interesting. I’ll keep them in mind going forward.
Three general points:
First, these changes to Garen are very nascent. To be honest, they went to the PBE because I accidentally placed them in the wrong folder. They are currently closer to the “Stuff a designer prototypes on his machine” level of completion than “Stuff we ship to Live.” Feedback is always welcome, but hyperbolic statements like “they’re ruining him” are not necessary and needlessly breed panic over changes that, when the dust settles, are almost certain to leave him stronger overall.
Second, since this was an accidental promotion, it also did not include all of the changes to Garen – in the version we are about to begin playtesting, his passive is dramatically improved during the later phases of the game (healing values up/cooldown down) and his base stats and stats per level are slightly different.
Third, you have misapprehended the direct effect of some of these changes. For example, Garen’s Judgment (Spin to Win) is not on a longer cooldown. Rather, the cooldown begins when you press the button rather than when you end your spin. This means that Garen scales better with cooldown reduction. For example, at 34% CDR (say, Black Cleaver + Spirit Visage + masteries) Garen would have 25% less downtime on Judgment compared to Live. At 0% CDR, the spell is unchanged from Live in max uptme.

What are these changes really about? Let’s consider the Garen on Live: As you’ve identified, he’s a lane bully who lacks a purpose in the lategame. You seem to believe this is all Garen can ever be. I disagree. Every champion should have a purpose, a clear and potent contribution they can offer their team, in the late game when the game’s focus is on team fights and objectives. The goal of these changes is to trade a small amount of lane strength for a fundamental re-think of Garen’s late game.
My vision for Garen is that he is a relatively low mobility fighter (unchanged) with low combat ranges (unchanged) who a) is more or less immune to poke damage, b) inflicts immense damage to anyone within his reach, and c) if forced out of a fight but not killed, will rapidly regenerate health to return to the fray for cleanup duty. Think of him as an inverted Mundo/Singed – lower in-combat sustain but dramatically higher out of combat sustain. Pre-fight, Garen should walk in front of Nidalee spears and /laugh. Within fights, Garen should cleave a path through the mid-line, force the enemy ADC so far out of the fight that they cannot participate, turn and shut down the enemy mage or tank, execute the other while at 5% life himself, then solo dragon while his team takes an inhibitor.
As a final note, this isn’t just about Garen. We’re looking closely at our fighters as a class for season 4, individually and as a class with the goal of making the top lane experience more enjoyable – (while being in it and after emerging from it).

thank you for the response. have you thought about giving garen his old flat armor/mr bonus back on his courage passive, instead of the % based bonus?

it had the advantage, that it didnt force you to build massive defenses. if you wanted to play him heavier on offense, you had the choice to do so, while still gaining the same bonus out of the passive.

now, he feels kindof pidgeonholed into manaless defensive items. personally, i want this to be a choice, not mandatory build path.


how about increasing the cap of the old passive to 35 armor/mr again, and reducing the stacks to .3 or .25 per lasthit, to even out his power curve?


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BeefyLoveLord

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by H0p0nP0p View Post
Please keep garen from getting hit by nexus tower wen he's rereleased =D

Btw, his q animation to dmg is very very slow now. Or is it just me?
Always been that way. Its good "counterplay" to be able to get dash/flash out of his Q on reaction to even a flash/Q if you have any reflexes.


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RagerDave

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameran View Post
Shyvana. Skarner. Mundo. Brand. Fiora. Swain. Warwick. Udyr. Olaf. Leblanc.

Maybe you should fix some of the numerous others that have similar issues (ie. get kited/be worthless late game). Your move?
You do realize half of those are bruisers right? Fiora, Swain, Brand, and Leblanc being the only exceptions. Furthermore, Swain is solid, Brand sees some play, and Leblanc is not that bad. Fiora is the only champion on your supposed list in any sort of dire strait worth of being buffed and retooled. And I'm sure Riot would rather rework her instead.


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Cameran

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Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Touchdown Reborn View Post
You do realize half of those are bruisers right? Fiora, Swain, Brand, and Leblanc being the only exceptions. Furthermore, Swain is solid, Brand sees some play, and Leblanc is not that bad. Fiora is the only champion on your supposed list in any sort of dire strait worth of being buffed and retooled. And I'm sure Riot would rather rework her instead.
Many of the champs aren't "bad", but they have exactly the problem CertainlyT highlights with Garen - an early/mid game niche with very little impact in the late game. LB is the best example of this - you'll know at the 20 minute mark what the outcome of a LB game is whether the game is over or not - either she destroyed the mid and snowballed or she'll be worthless for the remainder of the game.


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Croanin

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Thanks for the response I knew there was method behind this madness. My issue is your vision for Garen is kind of already what he does.