Diamond 1 Garen @ Riot/Balance Team - Why NERF Garen?!?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Limited Reactant

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Garen's Ult is magic damage because in S2 armor was cheap and penetration was expensive. Neither of those reasons hold any longer, so I agree his R being magic damage is something we should talk about changing. I'll ask Xypherous, who did the last round of changes on Garen why he left the R as magic. -- CertainlyT.
YES!! I once again have faith in Riot.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MarkXXIV

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hi MarineRevenge,
Thanks for your comments. Your thoughts on where crit should be on the kit are especially interesting. I’ll keep them in mind going forward.
Three general points:
First, these changes to Garen are very nascent. To be honest, they went to the PBE because I accidentally placed them in the wrong folder. They are currently closer to the “Stuff a designer prototypes on his machine” level of completion than “Stuff we ship to Live.” Feedback is always welcome, but hyperbolic statements like “they’re ruining him” are not necessary and needlessly breed panic over changes that, when the dust settles, are almost certain to leave him stronger overall.
Second, since this was an accidental promotion, it also did not include all of the changes to Garen – in the version we are about to begin playtesting, his passive is dramatically improved during the later phases of the game (healing values up/cooldown down) and his base stats and stats per level are slightly different.
Third, you have misapprehended the direct effect of some of these changes. For example, Garen’s Judgment (Spin to Win) is not on a longer cooldown. Rather, the cooldown begins when you press the button rather than when you end your spin. This means that Garen scales better with cooldown reduction. For example, at 34% CDR (say, Black Cleaver + Spirit Visage + masteries) Garen would have 25% less downtime on Judgment compared to Live. At 0% CDR, the spell is unchanged from Live in max uptme.

What are these changes really about? Let’s consider the Garen on Live: As you’ve identified, he’s a lane bully who lacks a purpose in the lategame. You seem to believe this is all Garen can ever be. I disagree. Every champion should have a purpose, a clear and potent contribution they can offer their team, in the late game when the game’s focus is on team fights and objectives. The goal of these changes is to trade a small amount of lane strength for a fundamental re-think of Garen’s late game.
My vision for Garen is that he is a relatively low mobility fighter (unchanged) with low combat ranges (unchanged) who a) is more or less immune to poke damage, b) inflicts immense damage to anyone within his reach, and c) if forced out of a fight but not killed, will rapidly regenerate health to return to the fray for cleanup duty. Think of him as an inverted Mundo/Singed – lower in-combat sustain but dramatically higher out of combat sustain. Pre-fight, Garen should walk in front of Nidalee spears and /laugh. Within fights, Garen should cleave a path through the mid-line, force the enemy ADC so far out of the fight that they cannot participate, turn and shut down the enemy mage or tank, execute the other while at 5% life himself, then solo dragon while his team takes an inhibitor.
As a final note, this isn’t just about Garen. We’re looking closely at our fighters as a class for season 4, individually and as a class with the goal of making the top lane experience more enjoyable – (while being in it and after emerging from it).
keep up the good work! You guys do a great job.

We're also good looking. -- CertainlyT.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BeefyLoveLord

Senior Member

09-07-2013

I'll ask Xypherous, who did the last round of changes on Garen why he left the R as magic. -- CertainlyT.

I'd imagine thats largely because Xyph had no idea what he was doing. We're talking about the designer who created Riven, a champion with 3 swing resets on her Q nerfing Garen's Q for having a "Bug that reset his swing on use."

Please tell me he's no where near this champions future reworks?

I admire the confidence you bring to making ill-informed statements. The bug was that Garen's Q DIDN'T reset his swing timer, so that if he attacked every 1 second he could go 0.0 HIT 0.5 Q 1.0 HIT.

Please refrain from posting in my threads from now on. -- CertainlyT


Thankfully this is Marines thread, so I'll go ahead and post if I like. Garens Q reset his swing both on start and finish, allowing him to Auto/Q/Auto to land very quickly in trades. Q's trading value was gutted during his rework making his early trades weaker as a result.

This is pretty standard stuff on any on-next activated. Take a look at Leo's shield Q. Are you telling me this is also a bug? perhaps we need to get some consistency across the board.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

doombotMECHA

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

09-07-2013

i just realized that many of the rework threads have been for bruisers...yorick, rengar, olaf, now garen...

I wouldn't describe Garen's changes as re-work level, but yes, this project is partially inspired by us noticing that trend as well. -- CertainlyT.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Polish Mug

Member

09-07-2013

I have a huge mancrush on CertainlyT. I am going to cook him dinner every night of the world finals so that we can eat and watch together.

Good suggestion.
--CertainlyT


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stradivarius

Junior Member

09-07-2013

So...I think this may not be seen 36 pages in, but CertainlyT, could you please stop editing posts to make your comments?

It allows the player to edit your comments out if they so chose and therefore erase any contribution you've made to the thread and also it makes it more difficult to find the content you've provided through your answers. Plus, you're leaving yourself open to be misquoted and people will believe it since you're not actually posting yourself but leaving all of your statements in the hands of potential trolls. Not that I think everyone is one...but let's be real, it's likely to run into at least one in a 30+ page thread.

If you have a lot of them to reply to, I'd much rather see one big post of quoted posts and answers to them than to have to sift through every single post and every single page to find ones you've replied to.

Really, I just want easier to digest responses on my Saturday evening ...and things I can find easier later on the devtracker

Thanks! Keep up the good work Love hearing responses on design.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Elmanbeastio

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Thanks for explaining this. I feel like all your posts so far have been spot on and I always leave them with a sense of 100% understanding.

Plz make Garen awesome as you are aware, hes very iconic to many of us.

I stand ready -- CertainlyT.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DreamsOfGrandeur

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
We'll hopefully start talking publicly about that in 2-6 weeks! Then the plan is to iterate on thoughtful feedback/playtesting from the community and have a more enjoyable fighter class, and top lane/jungle experience (the three are inextriacbly linked) ready for season 4.
While I like this statement, I think a lot of people aren't (even though they think they do).

A lot of Fighter classes are already super fun (but not really viable) due to lack of counterplay.
Which means, what CertainlyT is really saying is: How can we give the Fighters more counterplay. (So they're more enjoyable for opposing players, letting us buff them without being broken)

It's unavoidable. I hope a least a few of you who see this will reconsider his/her expectations and not be as slapped as you'd normally be when the time comes and your fave fighter's unique mechanic gets nerfed in favor viability.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CoolStoryBrony

Junior Member

09-07-2013

I'm happy you guys are doing something with Garen. The only thing I'm worried about is not being to cancel his E. If that change goes through, will I still be able to cast my ultimate during Judgement? On live this cancels E in favor of the execute, and it'll take away a lot from his kill potential if I have to wait for E to time out before my ult goes off.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Polish Mug

Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polish Mug View Post
I have a huge mancrush on CertainlyT. I am going to cook him dinner every night of the world finals so that we can eat and watch together.

Good suggestion.
--CertainlyT
wp