Diamond 1 Garen @ Riot/Balance Team - Why NERF Garen?!?

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Merina

Junior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I don't want to dwell on specifics because, again, these are first draft changes that have not even been playtested once outside of the lane. The reasoning for the change though was to make casting E a major commitment. Again, not every change will make Garen stronger. Every change should open space for us to make Garen stronger in the right hands.
Wouldn't that same logic apply to skills like Wukong's and Janna's ultimate? I'm sure you can see locking those champions into those abilities for the full duration would create enormous problems for their gameplay. Garen's Judgement is the same way; if you can't cancel it there's no way to back off if the situation calls for it.


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Still Eternity

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hi MarineRevenge,
Thanks for your comments. Your thoughts on where crit should be on the kit are especially interesting. I’ll keep them in mind going forward.
Three general points:
First, these changes to Garen are very nascent. To be honest, they went to the PBE because I accidentally placed them in the wrong folder. They are currently closer to the “Stuff a designer prototypes on his machine” level of completion than “Stuff we ship to Live.” Feedback is always welcome, but hyperbolic statements like “they’re ruining him” are not necessary and needlessly breed panic over changes that, when the dust settles, are almost certain to leave him stronger overall.
Second, since this was an accidental promotion, it also did not include all of the changes to Garen – in the version we are about to begin playtesting, his passive is dramatically improved during the later phases of the game (healing values up/cooldown down) and his base stats and stats per level are slightly different.
Third, you have misapprehended the direct effect of some of these changes. For example, Garen’s Judgment (Spin to Win) is not on a longer cooldown. Rather, the cooldown begins when you press the button rather than when you end your spin. This means that Garen scales better with cooldown reduction. For example, at 34% CDR (say, Black Cleaver + Spirit Visage + masteries) Garen would have 25% less downtime on Judgment compared to Live. At 0% CDR, the spell is unchanged from Live in max uptme.

What are these changes really about? Let’s consider the Garen on Live: As you’ve identified, he’s a lane bully who lacks a purpose in the lategame. You seem to believe this is all Garen can ever be. I disagree. Every champion should have a purpose, a clear and potent contribution they can offer their team, in the late game when the game’s focus is on team fights and objectives. The goal of these changes is to trade a small amount of lane strength for a fundamental re-think of Garen’s late game.
My vision for Garen is that he is a relatively low mobility fighter (unchanged) with low combat ranges (unchanged) who a) is more or less immune to poke damage, b) inflicts immense damage to anyone within his reach, and c) if forced out of a fight but not killed, will rapidly regenerate health to return to the fray for cleanup duty. Think of him as an inverted Mundo/Singed – lower in-combat sustain but dramatically higher out of combat sustain. Pre-fight, Garen should walk in front of Nidalee spears and /laugh. Within fights, Garen should cleave a path through the mid-line, force the enemy ADC so far out of the fight that they cannot participate, turn and shut down the enemy mage or tank, execute the other while at 5% life himself, then solo dragon while his team takes an inhibitor.
As a final note, this isn’t just about Garen. We’re looking closely at our fighters as a class for season 4, individually and as a class with the goal of making the top lane experience more enjoyable – (while being in it and after emerging from it).
This guy. This ****ing guy. So incredible. Is CertainlyT, you are my hero.


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Celestya

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Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
We'll hopefully start talking publicly about that in 2-6 weeks! Then the plan is to iterate on thoughtful feedback/playtesting from the community and have a more enjoyable fighter class, and top lane/jungle experience (the three are inextriacbly linked) ready for season 4.
I hope you guys end up taking the general "we do everything!" fighters and give them a more defined and isolated purpose, since they're still a problem in general, today. Also looking forward to hearing more about Garen changes (only part I'm honestly worried about from reading/seeing is the E not being allowed to cancel) and other such fighters with weird issues.

You've hit the nail on the head. Fighters "do everything" in large part because:

We haven't approached them with a clear idea of what they should actually excel at in the late game. This we think we can solve;
They fight against other people who do everything. This we know we can solve, but it requires us to address the class holistically;
They are melee and it takes a ton of tools to overcome the power of range. This is just a fact of life and fighters will always have more stat driven kits than ranged attackers and mages. -- CertainlyT.


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Pink Punk Zebra

Member

09-07-2013

Good Guy CertainlyT

He come here and he explain

Well i am just curious small rework to garen again

I want to see the new stuff (Base stats and ratios on skills)

-- Honestly, as I think these changes show, everything is super rough. We probably aren't even close to what the final changes will end up looking like yet.

I'm not keen on discussing changes that have no real playtesting because I can't have the meaningful dialogue you as community members deserve when I'm not confident in the actual results of the changes. -- CertainlyT.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
We'll hopefully start talking publicly about that in 2-6 weeks! Then the plan is to iterate on thoughtful feedback/playtesting from the community and have a more enjoyable fighter class, and top lane/jungle experience (the three are inextriacbly linked) ready for season 4.
I hope you consider poor old Mordekaiser in all this. He is essentially a far far inferior version of Rumble with no utility that kills himself during the lanephase. He's in a worse spot than pre-stealth remake eve and the situation only gets worse as you realise more fighter champions that can do everything he does better WITH utility ontop - Darius and Aatrox for example.

Mordekaiser is on our list. RiotSquad5 and I discussed a first changelist for testing last week. Darius is as well needs changes to his basic combat pattern so that we can make Noxian Guillotine the gamechanging high moment it once was - CertainlyT.


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Limited Reactant

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
--Not to be argumentative, but being a little more "difficult to use in lane" might be exactly what Judgment needs! We'll see through playtesting, and I am cognizant of the point you are raising about minion control -- CertainlyT.
Thanks, I look forward to the changes to Garen and the fighter class in general.


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MrStupididy

Junior Member

09-07-2013

I really hate how there are some OBVIOUS things that make no sense that riot thinks are OK to leave in the game. IE Sivir's ult makes no sense to have a cast time, Garen's ult in an all AD kit does magic damage which really hurts his calculations. I love riot and they're great at what they do but some things that shouldn't be too hard to look at make no sense.

Garen's Ult is magic damage because in S2 armor was cheap and penetration was expensive. Neither of those reasons hold any longer, so I agree his R being magic damage is something we should talk about changing. I'll ask Xypherous, who did the last round of changes on Garen why he left the R as magic. -- CertainlyT.


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InubashiriMomiji

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestya View Post

They fight against other people who do everything. This we know we can solve, but it requires us to address the class holistically;
They are melee and it takes a ton of tools to overcome the power of range. This is just a fact of life and fighters will always have more stat driven kits than ranged attackers and mages. -- CertainlyT.
I'm really curious as to what how you plan to solve these two problems in particular. A lot of forum top lane rage has been directed at these problems and it really seems like the source of these doesn't necessarily have to do with fighters but with design creep and the ease of anti-melee design.

It doesn't seem to me like these can be solved by just altering fighters; these are, in many ways, changes that affect the core of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Darius is as well needs changes to his basic combat pattern so that we can make Noxian Guillotine the gamechanging high moment it once was - CertainlyT.
Darius changes? Finally? I promised myself I wouldn't cry *sniff*.


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NVDax

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hi MarineRevenge,
Thanks for your comments. Your thoughts on where crit should be on the kit are especially interesting. I’ll keep them in mind going forward.
Three general points:
First, these changes to Garen are very nascent. To be honest, they went to the PBE because I accidentally placed them in the wrong folder. They are currently closer to the “Stuff a designer prototypes on his machine” level of completion than “Stuff we ship to Live.” Feedback is always welcome, but hyperbolic statements like “they’re ruining him” are not necessary and needlessly breed panic over changes that, when the dust settles, are almost certain to leave him stronger overall.
Second, since this was an accidental promotion, it also did not include all of the changes to Garen – in the version we are about to begin playtesting, his passive is dramatically improved during the later phases of the game (healing values up/cooldown down) and his base stats and stats per level are slightly different.
Third, you have misapprehended the direct effect of some of these changes. For example, Garen’s Judgment (Spin to Win) is not on a longer cooldown. Rather, the cooldown begins when you press the button rather than when you end your spin. This means that Garen scales better with cooldown reduction. For example, at 34% CDR (say, Black Cleaver + Spirit Visage + masteries) Garen would have 25% less downtime on Judgment compared to Live. At 0% CDR, the spell is unchanged from Live in max uptme.

What are these changes really about? Let’s consider the Garen on Live: As you’ve identified, he’s a lane bully who lacks a purpose in the lategame. You seem to believe this is all Garen can ever be. I disagree. Every champion should have a purpose, a clear and potent contribution they can offer their team, in the late game when the game’s focus is on team fights and objectives. The goal of these changes is to trade a small amount of lane strength for a fundamental re-think of Garen’s late game.
My vision for Garen is that he is a relatively low mobility fighter (unchanged) with low combat ranges (unchanged) who a) is more or less immune to poke damage, b) inflicts immense damage to anyone within his reach, and c) if forced out of a fight but not killed, will rapidly regenerate health to return to the fray for cleanup duty. Think of him as an inverted Mundo/Singed – lower in-combat sustain but dramatically higher out of combat sustain. Pre-fight, Garen should walk in front of Nidalee spears and /laugh. Within fights, Garen should cleave a path through the mid-line, force the enemy ADC so far out of the fight that they cannot participate, turn and shut down the enemy mage or tank, execute the other while at 5% life himself, then solo dragon while his team takes an inhibitor.
As a final note, this isn’t just about Garen. We’re looking closely at our fighters as a class for season 4, individually and as a class with the goal of making the top lane experience more enjoyable – (while being in it and after emerging from it).
Please keep the crit thing, that's really awesome


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Mordekaiser is on our list. RiotSquad5 and I discussed a first changelist for testing last week. Darius is as well needs changes to his basic combat pattern so that we can make Noxian Guillotine the gamechanging high moment it once was - CertainlyT.
Ok - Nijna Hack post editing Powers Mr T, but show me this changelist of yours. I am deeply invested into all things concerning this champion (Mordekaiser) and its mechanics.

Patience my friend. As the Mordekaiser player knows, you must first farm for 30 minutes before reaping your reward. -- CertainlyT