Diamond 1 Garen @ Riot/Balance Team - Why NERF Garen?!?

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MarineRevenge

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Edit 1 : For those of you who prefer video form and want to see the nerfs in action, i've uploaded a short VLOG about the changes showing them in action and explaining in depth why they're ruining him!
Link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teh4uVqxDTw

Edit 2 : You guys need to keep in mind, this might be a late game buff to his damage but it's a NERF to his early game consistency and reliability - Garen has NO LATE GAME no matter what if he doesn't have the tools to get an advantage, even if it's just a small one, early in the game! Thats why this is a NERF, it ruins his BEST PHASE of the game.

His damage is only even on enemy champions post-change compared to live values if you get at least half of the projected crits against the enemy champion (Consider how many crits will hit the same single target multiple times when there's 6 or 7 other potential targets (minions) in an potential lane-trade), and then it only breaks even. This is a lot of risk for no benefit, unless you get an overly large string of crits against an enemy champion in lane trades consistently, then this change does nothing positive for him when he needs to have an impact on the game.




Original Post Starts Here

Hi, I'm MarineRevenge. I am, and have been Diamond 1 for the last few months and I largely play top lane. I play champions like Tryndamere, Garen, Volibear and similar types. Garen is my second most played champ in ranked this season, over 100 solo queue Garen Games alone this season. I have 61.2% win rate with him at Diamond 1 level games (and have peaked as high as 68% in earlier stages of this season and over 70% in season 2).

I don't know how many Diamond level Garen players exist right now, i've literally only seen Garen get picked 2-3 times that wasn't by myself in the last 6~ months on my main account in ranked. Right now the suggested changes on pbe are massive nerfs to Garen and it really needs to be reverted.



The PBE Changes :

Judgment [ E ] - Cooldown is now 15/14/13/12/11 (up from 13/12/11/10/9 Seconds)
Judgment [ E ] - Now deals 20/40/60/80/100 (changed from 20/45/70/95/120)
Judgment [ E ] - Tooltip now says it has 0.1/0.15/0.2/0.25/0.3 bonus Critical Strike chance
Unlisted Ninja Nerf : You can't even cancel the duration anymore mid-spin, meaning youre doomed to auto-push the lane now if the enemy top breaks distance with you.






First thing's first, you're nerfing the base damage of his ability and trying to compensate with bonus critical chance. This nerfs his lane phase in several ways.

1. When garen crits with judgement, each individual target in his spin has a chance to be hit with a crit, this means using your judgement to trade in lane, while already shoving the lane really hard, is going to shove his lane even HARDER since he's going to deal more damage to minions inadvertantly by randomly critting them all over the place. Shoving your lane is REALLY BAD in top lane when you play a highly immobile/lack of dash champ like Garen as it is, and this change is only going to force him to shove even more than he already was thus making his lane phase incredibly riskier.

2. When trying to clear waves under your own tower right now, if you time his spin properly with the tower shots you can clear a full wave without missing any CS if you're familiar with how his spin damage is dealt at each rank. Now with the random critting you will likely miss farm being attacked by the tower if you crit it randomly unlike now where the base damage is at the right number to clear the entire wave when you use his spin correctly between tower shots.

3. Nerfing his base damage and trying to add a crit mechanic to it means if you crit a minion and your crit chance goes to waste instead of against the enemy champion you're trying to trade with, you will lose that RNG bonus against the champion and do overall less damage post-change than you do currently, garen CANNOT afford to lose trades due to a random mechanic and due to the nature of randomness and number size, it's much more likely your crit gets wasted on one of the 6 minions you're almost definitely hitting than the champion you need to trade with effectively in order to fulfill Garens most important role in the game - a lane bully.

4. By nerfing his cooldown by 2 seconds at every rank (when his cooldown is already considerably long consider his E is his only real source of damage which is on 9 seconds at max rank already) you're going to punish Garen players significantly if they dont get a lucky string of crits against target champion during the lane phase.






Garen's role right now is a niche pick Lane Bully that can transition to a sort of DPS-TANK that counters melee-casters like Diana/Katarina/Kassadin/Fizz/Zed in team fights and brings a decent amount of anti-frontline by having a executioner that scales on missing HP. You're absolutely stripping him of the lane bully presence Garen is primarily picked for, if he can't snowball or at least get some sort of an edge over his lane opponent he will fall off considerably as he always has, and these changes are going to make him even more Binary than before but with a very large tendancy towards being useless/behind due to how ineffective this RNG will actually play out!

It's not like Tryndamere's RNG where it's all about single target, doesn't shove lane ridiculously hard when trading with an enemy and if you don't get any RNG strength in a trade he has ways to recover somewhat effectively due to proper sustain mechanic and scaling. Garen does NOT have the same scaling, Garen does NOT have the same recovery tools, Garen can not afford to take overly large risks in trades because he does NOT have the safety of many other top laners because he shoves his lane so hard and is so immobile.




These changes are EXTREMELY short sighted. The biggest offender is the cooldown nerf, 2 seconds is so massive during lane phase, you have NO CLUE if you haven't played Garen at the top levels of solo queue.





If you really want to add crit chance to Garen to try and give him later-game scaling, can we do it in a way that doesn't destroy his early-game? Here's an idea, revert all the current numbers on PBE back to live value, and give Garen a passive crit-chance steroid that multiplies his current crit chance by a set value. Put it on his Q, making it scale with rank since most garen players don't max Q until 13 and don't build crit until later on. This solves any early-game abuse cases and you can add crit to his kit that also affects his decisive strike which is BETTER for garen since both of those abilities can crit. Sound reasonable?






Please don't destroy one of my favorite champs. I love Garen, the "VU" is already underwhelming and a step back in many ways (sanguine/desert trooper/rugged/dreadknight all look really rushed and not thought out..) and these nerfs to his early-game will be the nail in the coffin for him.



Signed,
a bitter high elo garen vet.




Edit : Here's a really indepth explanation on how crit works in league and how it will affect garen post-change as concerns to exactly how the system works is raising some questions as to whether this is a nerf or not to his lane, so here is a comment with a explanation following!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlargCow View Post
pretty sure garen's spin doesn't work like that. each spin tick has a chance to crit

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineRevenge View Post
Yes, each tick, 6 ticks over 3 seconds (half a second = 1 tick and can crit for 1/6th of the damage dealt, but not the base amount only the bonus damage as seen on its ratio).

Each tick has a chance to crit, but the way crit is coded into the game is the more you crit, the less you crit, and his spin doesn't crit all targets when he procs a crit. If he's hitting 6 targets and crits one, he doesn't inherently crit all 6 at the same time.

Since the more you crit = the less you crit, rather than every single tick being a 10% chance no matter what, if you crit minions once and not the enemy champion you now have less than 10% chance to crit any of the targets in the spin over the next part of the duration.

Because of how their system works with Critical Strike and critting anything means despite crit chance not changing, your ACTUAL HIDDEN chance to crit a target goes down despite the displayed crit value = they're taking an RNG mechanic and making it RNG A RNG MECHANIC, there's less than whatever displayed value of chance to crit the enemy champion (and win the trade) unless he is the ONLY target you're hitting with your spin.

Because that is not how it will EVER play out in an actual game, this is a MASSIVE nerf to garens lane since they're nerfing the CD and Base damage values of his spin, to accomdate critting champions but because of what and how I just explained the ability will actually work out, it only serves to MASSIVELY hinder garens damage potential in lane not just by base values but also the overnerfed cooldown = garen is literally 2011 eve tier champ.


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CyberDarkBlade

Senior Member

09-06-2013

I concur with the OPs sentiment and endorse his call to reason.

/signed


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Grand Eleven

Senior Member

09-06-2013

As someone who has never played Garen and rarely sees him played: This sounds reasonable.

Also: is it bad that he looks unchanged in his VU to me? I mean seriously: I dont see him much so the images looked like "yup thats garen"


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MarineRevenge

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Eleven View Post
As someone who has never played Garen and rarely sees him played: This sounds reasonable.

Also: is it bad that he looks unchanged in his VU to me? I mean seriously: I dont see him much so the images looked like "yup thats garen"
the splash art is the only place he looks properly different.

i like the johnny bravo dance, but the rest feels.. eh


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Commando Yi

Senior Member

09-06-2013

whaaaaaaaaaat the ffffffffffff----------

nerfing garen of all things?

did morello face a garen up top recently?


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Deep Purple

Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commando Yi View Post
whaaaaaaaaaat the ffffffffffff----------

nerfing garen of all things?

did morello face a garen up top recently?
Morello doesn't even play top. I think it's the whole "Pick a random champion to nerf" thing


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MrSc0tty

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Poor Garen. Next in line for Morelos ultimate plan of removing all abilities from champions and turning everyone into adcs.


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giggityboo

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Garen is literally one of the easiest champions to kite, i have no idea why they would even think about nerfing him.


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PraytoBasedGod

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Silver 4 baddy approving of this thread.

Congrats on playing Garen in Diamond dude, I can barely play him at my ELO without getting ridiculously counterpicked. Nerfs seem out of place.


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Dr W

Senior Member

09-06-2013

I read title as Diamond 1 Tryndamere since thats all I see you play.


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