Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Raptamei

Senior Member

08-28-2013

If Riot makes Nunu's ult visible in the bush, I quit. And I don't even play Nunu. But this fun-killing mindset of streamlining the enjoyment out of the game is going too far.


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HubenDraknir666

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Senior Member

08-28-2013

Just my 2 cents:

I like the way vision works as is aside from the current bugs

But I feel nunus ult should get the zilean bomb treatment ie: it should do 1 true damage per second while charging

This way he will be seen in the bush after you already took the bait and he can't just herp derp tower dive with minions and ult you with no reprocusions or ult while your teams doing drag/baron for free or hide in blue/red bush and ult you during his OP counter jungling without gaining aggro

Edit: to clarify this way nunus ult won't be shown while in a bush like it is currently but after you take the bait chasing and are already IN his ult range THEN you see him and can stop his ult or flash/(insert counter play) but he doesn't get stupid advantages from his ult not drawing tower/monster aggro


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Grey Wolf

Senior Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hi everyone,

I've been quiet for a while so for those of you who who don't know me I'm Yakaru and I'm one of the Senior Gameplay Engineers. I'm pretty well known as a hardcore tabletop gamer and for my Ninja 300 motorcycle.

~Yakaru
What tabletop games do you play? Have you ever been to the World Boardgaming Championships?


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Fawar

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Senior Member

08-28-2013

Personnaly, I find it unintuitive that some spell reveal you and some other does not. Everytime you will need to learn and remember which are dangerous to use and which are not and well this isn't not 'real' enough.

Here is my idea, but for it to be understood properly here is some context.

What are Brushes?

To me it's tall grass, jungle type with similar dynamic to Corn fields.

What does that mean to me?

Simply that when you enter the Corn Field(CF)/Brushes, you are visibile at the begining and when you get a little deeper, you disappear. It also means that when something is shoot from inside the CF/Brushes you should not see from where it came nor from whom. All you would see is what happened, IE Explosion, AOE, Aura but not the shooter. Which is not always true, let's say you get close to the brushes/CF without being in it. You will see a bit in it or, you will see who's shooting at you from the sides of the brushes (Someone could enter, go deep, go back to the side sneaked and you would not see him, but when he starts shooting is not deep enough not to be seen)


Now that you have the idea explained, here is how I would add it to LoL.

Entering the brushes

There would be a fading over 1-2 sec to disappear in it. It would not be automatic has it is now.
This would make juking by entering the brush undoable and would make a chase, a chase, not some kind of sorcery.


Skillshot,SpellShot,AOE, Ranged Auto-Attack, Passive (Lulu's), Runaan's hurricane

The caster/shooter would not be reveal on those actions. The actions itself would be displayed at all time. Each of thoses actions would have some kind of revealing radius. Exemple : Brand cast his Pillar of Flame in the brushes, it would reveal what is in it and a bit on the edge of it not the brush entirely. AOE actions would have a proportionaly revealing radius and target action would have either target revealing or smaler/really smaler revealing.

Sides revealing

I was talking about depth earlier on, to me if the champion is near the edge of the brush while being inside it should be reveal when shooting anything OUTSIDE OF THE BRUSH, if it's in there is no reason to reveal him following the logic I talked about earlier on. Once reaveal, there would be the entering fading triggering.

AURAS

To me auras have visual effects on the champions receiving it. It would then be wrong to not display it because the aura's caster is in a brush. It would also be a sell-off for supports and jungler ganking or anyone using one while being in a brush. I was thinking about adding an effect to ward which would negate aura in their vision range?


Melee moves/autoattacks

Are you a fighter or not? Autoreaveal on every of those actions + triggering the entering brush effect.

Linked spells

I will explain this part by comparing Leblanc's etheral chains/Blitz's grab to Skarner's impale which are exactly the same to me.
If range is long, it would reveal the link but not the champion. IE Skarner would reveal himself only because he is close to his target, while blitz and leblanc would only reveal their arm/chain. There is a bit more to it. If blitz or leblanc would be near the edges of the brush, it would reveal them has if they were firing at skill/spell shot has discussed earlier and triggering the entering fading effect.


That would cover brushes mecanics to me, but I would like them to be less static.

I would like them to be dynamic and reacts to what is happening.

Brushes being trampled

I think that brushes should feel the fact that it is being walked on too much. Let's take Alistar. Big fat minautor moving back and forth in the brush. To me those should at some point be trampled and not hide anyone anymore. It would allow some new play has brush hiding's denial and brush hiding being limited at some point. Once trampled it would trigger the regrowing of those brushes, there could also be an item to instantly regrow it. Charge skills like hecarim would auto-trample the brushes. Also, the bigger the champion the faster it tramples the brushes. Brushes could be partially trampled and not fully trampled every single time.

Brushes being destroyed

Same has being trampled, but it would happen because of destructive spells like Brand's pillar. IMO it should also be able to catch in fire and be extinguished with water spells (nami's ult?) It would trigger a longer regrow has the brushes is destroyed and not trampled.

Brushes being knocked back

For the duration of the skill it would be some how pushed back (Crop Symbol like). Talking about Janna's tornado, ult and simmilar skills.

Brushes regrowing
Over a period of time the brushes would regros and reactivate it's hiding skill.

Brushes dimensions

With those adjustments I think some brushes would need to be bigger or have different forms.

What do you think summoners?


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HiddenOctopus

Senior Member

08-28-2013

Although unrelated I believe I have been able to figure out the "Two Fast Minions" bug that has been going on for quite some while. I was able to replicate this by walking just in front of/on top of the front two melee minions. They then speed up for a short duration and I was able to do this all down a single lane with two minions far in front of the rest of the pack.


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Knückles

Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
This is definitely sounding like at a minimum the most popular idea. I'm going to prototype it and see if this is technically feasible and looks good/natural
I would think that it would be difficult to see this transparency on your champ when you're looking through the transparency of the bush itself. Just my 2 cents.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

08-28-2013

I wish there was a UI icon for "Hidden" to help showcase if you are revealed in brush or not. It's been my biggest complaint about learning what reveals and doesn't. It just takes a lot longer to figure out if you are revealed because there's zero indication.


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Spada Lunga

Senior Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey Renzokuken,

I'm going to get a bit technical here. I'm not saying this is how it should work, but just how it currently works.

Basically the way vision works is each vision source is evaluated separately:
the sight you get that shows stealth does not 'reveal all stealth in this area' but requires the source of that stealth (e.g. your pink ward outside the brush, your support with oracles, etc.) sight actually see it. So even if your green ward can see inside the brush it doesn't "partner up" with the pink/oracles nearby to see inside it.

If you guys think this could be changed I'm definitely open to talk about it
The only issue I have with the way this works is using your pink wards in the river. I believe that pink wards should reveal stealthed units within their range so long as there isn't a separate source of fog/brush/whatever that would cause those units to continue to be undetectable.

In other words, I want to be able to place my pink ward further up the river for more line of sight, but also be able to kill that enemy sight ward that is chillin' in the river bush.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

08-28-2013

I think that revealing a champion for a very short period of time on spell cast could be fair. I mean very short. Just enough that you can see Nidalee and her spear at the very went of her cast frame before the skillshot launches and then she's hidden again. Where as auto attacks should reveal a good bit longer.


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ploki122

Senior Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
This is definitely sounding like at a minimum the most popular idea. I'm going to prototype it and see if this is technically feasible and looks good/natural
But then, what happens to Akali that has shroud inside the brush, and leaves the radius (going form stealth to hidden)? What if she is inside the brush, inside the shroud, but also inside Cass' purple leak (hidden revealed, not stealth)?

Otherwise, what could be possible is to give only small portion of vision of whoever uses offensive skills inside the brush (2-300 units in diameter, instead of revealing the whole brush [inside your sight radius])